SM406 10 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I really enjoy the discussions that occur in this forum. Therefore I would like to throw this out to go around the campfire. I know how I feel about the following, but I was wondering how the rest of you feel and is there any national policy covering it. This past Wednesday was the kickoff parade for the locale firemans carnival that is the principal fund raiser for the fire department. Because the parade is in the middle of the summer and the middle of the week it is very well attended by spectators as wells as participants in the parade. A fairly nice size affair. Every year the local Boy Scout troop has been invited to participate. A good thing. This year the troop was second, behind the National Guard Color Guard. The troop has always paraded with the troop flag and the US flag. However, this year they added mock rifles to the troops Flag color guard. I was taken by surprise by this. The troop does not have a formal Color Guard and I was concerned by them finding it necessary to carry guns even if they were fake. I think I know where the adult leadership was going with this, but is it proper? Please do not take me wrong on this. I own firearms and shoot trap and skeet and hunt and all that. I was just wondering if I am a little paranoid about the image it portrayed. I look forward to everyones thoughts. SM406 Link to post Share on other sites
Wallace 10 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 It is great that they were participating. It does seem odd in the context of our "no camo-military uniform-military marching-don't you dare ever do anything like the military or Navy" forum discussions that this would happen. It sounds like they could have been perceived by the public as "junior" National Guard. I do not have the appropriate BSA literature here to look it up. Link to post Share on other sites
acco40 95 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Were they tring to promote the Rifle Shooting merit badge? Bad form in my book. Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I see nothing wrong with an Honor Guard with Rifles, I see it as a tradition, much as having "In God we trust" printed on the country's money even in defiance of separation of church and state. One of the local high schools has an honor guard, they have rifles as well. I dont think anyone feels that a school with a rifled honor guard is promoting guns in school any more than scouts are promoting a military look. as a side note, in the 2002 movie Spy Game with Robert Redford and Brad Pitt, the following exchange occurs between Robert Redford's and Pitt's charactor: Redford: Where did you learn to shoot like that? Pitt: Boy Scouts sir! Now that is the image I want to promote, good skills and proud of where they came.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 On a secondary note, does anyone have an official, "show me where its written" reference for the dont do anything military "policy"" Wallace sorta referenced it and I would like to know if anything is actually written anywhere. At our summer camp, as I would imagine at most, the day starts with colors, the troops assemble on the parade field, salute the American flag as it is hoisted to the accompaniment of a canon shot and bugle. Then at night the flag is retrieved also to a canon shot and bugle after which the troops "report" in. If scouts are'nt supposed to do any thing military, I need an explanation of how the flag raising and retrieving ceremonies are characterized. I dont think being like the military is a bad thing. We wake to reveille, we have ranks, we have patrols, we have troops, we salute the flag, we have as our aims charactor, citizenship and personal fitness. Again, sounds pretty near to the military to me. And again, I dont think its bad Link to post Share on other sites
KoreaScouter 13 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Our last troop's CO was a VFW post, so we did a fair amount of ceremonial/patriotic event participation with them. We didn't practice close order drill, and didn't carry rifles, but were there, in some semblance of order, in as complete uniforms as our lads could muster, and as most of our Scouts came from military families, didn't have to be told to stand still, be quiet, etc. That's okay, and in this case, if the troop isn't replacing Scoutcraft with rifle drills, that's okay too I think. If a prospective member is attracted to the Troop from seeing the color guard, he'll know in a second that it isn't JROTC... KS Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster7 11 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 To my knowledge and understanding, "the don't do anything like the military" policy (as one person put it) is intended to ban military-like disciplinary actions. That is to say, it's okay to wear uniforms (good thing because we got em); It's okay to march in a parade (and even carry mock guns to my understanding); And it's okay to do flag ceremonies, etc. - BUT - It's NOT okay to make a kid do 50 push-ups for not wearing his uniform properly; It's NOT okay to make kids run 2 miles for being disorderly; And it's NOT okay to yell and scream at a boy because he didn't show you respect. So, military things are okay, but we need to be careful that we don't imitate their disciplinary methods.(This message has been edited by Rooster7) Link to post Share on other sites
dan 10 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I am pretty sure the reference to not be like the military is in the SM handbook. When I get home I will look it up. I do not like that fact that a BSA troop carried "guns". I do not see what this has to do with the program. Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I don't know if this helps or not, but a quick Google search turned up this statement on a number of troop or council sites. While it does not mention guns specifically, you can read it and see what you think. "Military training and drill are prohibited. Marksmanship, military career experiences, and elementary drill for ceemonies are permitted." Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Old Guy 11 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Close order drill is a no-no even though BSA used to have drill teams. I understand that this went away in the late 60's or early 70's because the military went out of fashion. What's so bad about close order drill? Anyone who has been in any of the armed services knows that drill serves a variety of purposes. One is to get from here to there in an orderly fashion. Scouts in parades usually look like gaggles and not units. Our Scoutmaster broke the rules and decided to teach a bit of simple drill. The Scouts now know how to stand in a line, come to attention, and walk in an orderly fashion. I'm sure that he's considered evil by many but most of the Scouts think that it is neat to have an "official" way to line up. I would like a clarification of something, the rules say, "imitation of US Army, Navy or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited". Oddly, the Sea Scouts buy their uniforms directly from the Naval Uniform Shop. What gives? Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 The answer to the Sea Scout question is in the insignia worn. DS Link to post Share on other sites
acco40 95 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Remember this (I'm sure KoreaScouter can remind us) that many BSA units are overseas. You don't want 12 year old boys running around a foreign country to be mistaken for our military (or vice versa). The BSA does try to distance itself from hunting and also overtly military overtones. These endeavors go in and out of style and may offend some. Therefore, you see no hunting requirements or MBs (but many Scout Reservations allow hunters to hunt on their land, but not as a specific Scout activity). BSA also does not want to give the impression of anything para-miltary. Heck, I live in the home of the infamous "Michigan militia" and really don't want Scouts to be associated in any shape or form with survivalists (a la OK bombers). (This message has been edited by acco40) Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Old Guy 11 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 "The answer to the Sea Scout question is in the insignia worn." Interesting. So, if a Venturing Crew decided to adopt USMC dress blues and changed out the buttons and put some BSA stuff on the jacket, that would be okay? Link to post Share on other sites
frank10 12 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 I won't go so far as to say the mock guns were wrong but I wouldn't use them for my unit. One item that can add a lot of class to your unit is white gloves for the color guard. ------------ As for uniforms, I worry about the crew that works with our local police. Some thing about putting a police uniform on a 17 year old... Some day one of them is going to get hurt when he ends up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Link to post Share on other sites
hops_scout 9 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Wingnut, I would agree that white gloves would add to the apperance of a color guard. Link to post Share on other sites
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