The proper image?

[Rooster7 11]

I've heard all of the arguments against Scouts imitating the military, and I realize that the BSA does not necessary endorse the same vision of Scouting as Baden Powell once had. However, for those folks that think the military and Scouting should be mutually exclusive, please do a little research. You might be surprised. Did you know that British Scouts actively supported the military during WWII?

 

On St. George's Day 1943 the Scouts of Malta were awarded the Bronze Cross, the highest decoration for gallantry of the Boy Scouts Association of the British Commonwealth and Empire "in recognition of their courage, heroic endurance and devotion to duty in the war for freedom". The Official History of the Boy Scouts Movement 1939-1945 records "The Scouts of Malta endured a heavier ordeal than any others. They were employed as coast-watchers, messengers, telephone operators; they manned Air Raid Precaution centres, worked in the censor's office, in the hospitals, and those who were old enough in the Volunteer Defence Force. One of their more important duties was that of acting as Telephone orderlies when convoys were unloaded... The bravery of the Scouts during the frequent air-raids became a by-word among the population. Their headquarters was destroyed together with all the records... All of them must be a shining example to Scouts everywhere as long as the Movement endures". The unique award was presented to the Scouts by the Chief Scout (and Governor) of Malta, Lord Govt V.C. at the Palace Square in Valletta.

 

Baden-Powell not only encouraged their participation, he was d*** proud of those Scouts. While I wouldn't encourage my 16 or 17 year old son to serve in the military during a time of war, I certainly wouldn't mind if my son was associated with the US Military. In my eyes, there are very few compliments that can match that connection. Lest we forget, we do have the finest, bravest, and most dedicated fighting force on the planet. We should be proud of these young men and women. If our younger children are associated with the same, I'm embracing it, not running from it. As to the foreign country concern, these days just to be associated with America is dangerous.

 

I suppose my stance is not politically correct. Still, I think the danger with the association is minimal. And frankly, I'm disheartened by the fact that so many folks in and out of Scouting think its wrong for Scouts to imitate the honorable men and women who serve our country. I wasnt a big fan of early 70's or the politics that prompted this change in philosophy by the BSA. Im still not.

 

[Twocubdad 665]

May I suggest that the image has a lot to do with the age of the boys? While we all encourage our Scouts to emulate the patriotism, honor and duty to country our servicemen and women have, I don't think it is unreasonable that some would find it distasteful for young boys to copy some of the lethal aspects of the military.

 

Consequently paintball wars are out while a game of capture the flag is in. Targets picturing people or animals aren't allowed. Color guards carrying fake rifles? Hmmmmm....I don't know that I have a serious objection to it, but I suppose I would have to ask what the purpose is? How does that further the aims of the program?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Acco40,

 

The BSA may not allow Boy Scout troops to hunt, but Hunting is an elective in the Venturing High Adventure program.

 

http://usscouts.org/advance/venturing/electives/hunting.html

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Came across this one night, thought is may be a good idea to bring here:

 

http://www.chsscout.net/rescenter/video/index.shtml

 

Scroll to the bottom, there are recordings of B-P's voice talking about Scouting. It doesn't embarrass me to say that listening to these recordings always brings a tear to my eye when you listen to his thoughts on the goal and purpose of scouting. Listen particularly to number 4, where he says scouting is Non-Military, Non-Sectarian, and Non-Political and expresses hope that the brotherhood of scouting will make war impossible. Leave it to a soldier, who knows the horrors of war, to try to make war obselete.

 

In Number 5 he talks about British Scouts and congratulates them for their efforts during the war. He says being a soldier or sailor isnt the goal of scouting, but to be a good citizen.

 

The same site has video of B-P talking as well.

 

It gives you a sense of the man, and his own sense of humor. It makes me proud to be a scout and makes me wonder what he would say about us now, after all, "all we are are a bunch of bare kneed rascals in Cowboy hats and staves in our hands"(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[britag 10]

I think the rifles are proper symbology of a "Color Guard" without them it is a "Color Detail". It has been awhile and im not positive .

 

-britag

[ozemu 10]

Mmmmm. I give the rifles around your colours/flags/pennants etc a big no.

 

That is, in my ex army book, a military tradition and in our forces is only relevant to consecrated ensigns etc. The national flag does not get this type of escort. I see the rifles as very military and although I am happy to have served, wish I was now, and happy for my Scouts to enlist or even assist the military in time of war this is not appropriate for Scouting.

 

Use rifles and hunt if you wish but escorting colours that have not been consecrated / blessed is imitating something which BP said we are not. And I agree with the old bloke.

 

Colour guards have nothing to do with marksmanship training or hunting etc - it is a ceremonial function only born from defending your units colours in battle.

 

My opinion only and I realise and accept that you see lots of these things differently.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Consecrated ensign? Who or what does the blessing?

 

 

[ozemu 10]

Beats me. Such a rare event as the colours last for a long long time. I carried my Battalions senior ensign a fair bit including a drum head service that was led by the unit padre but I suspect that when colours first come into service that a pretty high church leader gets involved. Not being christian I may have used the wrong word. Consecrated = blessed to me. I think they get into the whole holy water thing.

 

Scouts Australia even had a section on carrying dedicated flags I think the term was. No use of weaponry or toy guns. The section was in our old policy document and I cannot recall a current reference.

[Eamonn 61]

Have to admit yo not being over keen on the addition of toy guns.

Not sure if we would look like a millitary unit or a bunch of cheer leaders.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Well, you guys down under have different customs and traditions than we do. I don't remember ever seeing a flag get blessed unless it was in church when the priest was spraying holy water everwhere.

 

When a ship's ensign becomes unservicable, they simply retire the old and break out a new one.

 

Around here, nearly all color guards carry guns, either mock or real (not toy, okay) that includes the guards at high school football games.

[ozemu 10]

Our old colours are kept in a church in a significant town in the recruiting area normally. After 50-100 years or so they are then stored in an archive. Ive seen one set that had such a journey. My last units colours are in one of the local churches today. The current set are illuminated at the unit HQ entrance in a glass case locked etc. Just tonight I checked that the staves were facing the right way - old habits die hard. The colours are only handled by Ensigns wearing gloves and leave the case with an escort carrying fixed bayonets.

 

In comprison our national flag and the unit flag (not colours) that flies every day is rolled up and put on a shelf every night with just the duty NCO carrying a whistle. Pretty much like we do at Scouts.

 

If anyone tried to grab our colours (as happened in the Vietnam days) they would face the escort which would form square around the colours. The bayonets are not just for show. The rest of the unit would then pitch in. It would be an ugly scene. The police are always in abundance when we troop the colours for these reasons among others. I would not like my Scouts involved in such an event.

 

I suppose we draw a clear line between colours and flags. We also have different approaches to firearms. To me those things are core in this discussion however I realise that I may be off on a tangent in this forum. Hope I havent bored you with the comparison.