Tour Permits are Siblings Covered

[clay]

When we get a tour permit to take the boys on a trip are parents and siblings covered. We always have siblings and parents go with us on all cub scouts outings. For example we are going to visit the new arena being built in downtown Memphis. We will have to wear hard hats and follow the engingeers around. What a great experience for the kids. We have never told a sibling that they could or could not go with us. This was left up to the parents. Just Thinking : Clay

[eisely]

If your question is, are such non members covered by the liability insurance carried by the council, my guess is that they are not.

[Bob White]

My understanding is that only members and guests who are eligibe to become members are covered by the BSA's accident insurance.

 

BW

[eisely]

My understanding is the same as BW's. Thus parents who are not registered volunteers and siblings who, by virtue of age or gender, are not eligible to join, would not be covered.

[dsteele]

Members and guests are covered under BSA general liability insurance on approved outings and functions. There is no requirement that the guest be eligible to join, but I can see where the idea may have come from. If a sibling tags along on an outing, that's a guest. A parent is also a guest of the unit.

 

However, if I were an attorney in a liability suit and someone tried to convince me that the kid who is eligible to join and attended 3, 4, 5, 15 outings and never applied for membership by submitting an application and fees to the council service center . . . I wouldn't buy it and would use it in court.

 

The tour permit is important to make sure your outing meets the rules of the BSA to be sure you're covered by the liability insurance. Parents and siblings should be counted in the youth and adult numbers on the tour permit.

 

DS

[eisely]

Learn something new every day. Including non-member guests in the head count on the tour permit is a good idea.

 

While we are on the subject...

 

In other threads in the past, most posters seem to come down on the side of "there is no such thing as family camping" in BSA. I never was satisfied with that.

 

Man of Steele, since this was before your active participation in this forum, perhaps you can shed some more light on this. What do we mean by family camping? What does BSA policy have to say about this?

[CubPack495]

Page 13-2 of the Cub Scout Leader Book addresses unit insurance:

 

"Non-Scouts attending scheduled activities (including group travel to and from such activies) for the purpose of being encouraged to participate in Scouting are also automatically covered; however, the plan does not cover parents, siblings, or other guests."

 

There should be a copy of your specific insurance policy with the rechartering information. Hope this helps

 

~Laurie

[Bob White]

Dsteele

I was lead to believe that there is a difference between liability coverage and our accident insurance. The liability insurance protcts us from loss when someone else is injured on the trip. Accident insurance protects the victim from loss.

 

Is this not the case? If so, I believe that only members and guests eligible for membership are protected by accident insurance. Liability as I understand it protects the leaders, CO, and the Council should a member or guest be injured.

 

??????

 

Bob White

[dsteele]

I'll address family camping at a later time when I have better resources than here in my den on a Friday evening. There are some specific definitions.

 

To answer Bob's question -- there are a lot of subtle differences between liability and accident insurance.

 

In short, liability insurance has to do with protection in the event of a law suit and generally doesn't apply to parents or siblings. The wording in the Cub Scout Leader Guide referred to by another is a simplification. The fact is that in a majority of cases parents or siblings wouldn't be sued in the event something went wrong -- they're not in charge. If they took charge and there was evidence of neglect on their part, they could be sued but the liability insurance wouldn't apply. Therefore it is very simple to say that parents and siblings aren't covered. Where they could be covered is if they suddenly found themselves in charge if the unit leadership were suddenly incapacitated and they took over . . . like I said, not likely.

 

Accident insurance, which is optional in many councils and comes from an outside company (like Mutual of Omaha) covers the costs and damages associated with physical injuries (and illnesses in the case of council policies) resulting from Scouting activities.

 

If it clarifies to simplify (and there is the danger of oversimplification especially when it comes to insurance) but here's how I remember it:

 

Liability insurance = lawyer/ law suit

Accident = ouchie = doctors

 

Does that help?

 

DS

[Bob White]

So then DS are we in violent agreement here?

 

In the case of a pack trip with siblings along, only the registered cubs, or their age eligible potential member guests are covered by the councils accident insurance, and only the registered adults, CO and Council are covered by the BSA liability insurance.

 

Right?

 

Bob White

[packsaddle]

If a scout troop and a non-scout youth group combine for a common trip, how do we separate these issues?

[dsteele]

If the non-scout group is traveling under the auspices of the troop outing, the troop leaders are covered in the event of legal issues.

 

If someone gets hurt, BSA accident insurance will pay for Scout's treatment, but not necessarily the other's. It depends on whether you have the accident insurance and which kind it is.

 

DS

[packsaddle]

OK, that's good. Do we list the non-scouts on the tour permit? The reason I ask is that sometimes we need the church youth that are not in Boy Scouts in order to attain critical mass for certain outings (where a group rate, for example, requires a minimum number). The non-scouts are mostly girls.

[eisely]

Where accident insurance is available through councils locally the coverages I have seen offered are also "no fault" coverage. That is to say, if there is an accident, the coverage applies regardless of who, if anybody, is responsible. The coverage is also secondary to any medical coverage carried by individuals. The coverages I have seen offered deal only with medical expenses and sometimes fixed amounts of additional indemnity for specific losses. Economic losses such as inability to earn an income are not covered.

 

The coverages I have seen specifically apply only to registered adult and youth members.

 

All these still leaves open the question of coverage availability for non members. If you have access to supplemental accident coverage locally and this is an issue for you, contact either the underwriting insurance company of some (knowledgeable) person at the council office.

[eisely]

D Steele,

 

Apologies for what was a cheap shot at council offices in my last post. Problem is, that on many issues I can get more answers from our council office than there are people there to supply answers.