Confidentiality

[Zahnada]

There is a very interesting debate going on in the "Here we go again..." topic of the Issues and Politics forum. I know that many of you avoid that forum (which makes you a smarter person than I) but I thought you might have some good things to say. It starts around page 3 of the topic. Go past Bob White and myself ranting back and forth.

 

The discussion is this:

 

What do you do when a boy wants to tell you something but asks that you not tell his parents?

 

This is a valuable conversation for every scout leader and I hope you jump in with your views.

[scoutldr]

Scouting is supposed to be a "safe haven". If a scout is troubled, and thinks I am the one who can help him, I am going to listen. That's my job, and I hope other leaders would do the same for my sons. After I hear what the problem is, he and I together will decide what to do. I will never turn away a child in need. That's neither Christian nor Scout-like. Y'all can debate till the cows come home, but to me, it's never been a question.

 

"to help other people at all times..."

[Bob White]

Scoutldr,

No one has suggested turning away the child. The question is whose child is it? By what authority does the Scoutleader keep secrets from the parent? How does teaching the scout to not talk to his parents benefit the scout or the family unit? What example are we setting as leaders if we teach the scout that it is alright to keep secrets from parents?

 

Who really benefits?

>The scout by not having the support of his parents to work through the problem?

>The Parents who are unawre that their son is facing the problem and so are unable to help?

>The scoutmaster whose ego is stroked knowing that someone elses child has chosen them to confide in an the power they have bestowed on themselves to keep the parents in the dark about their childs problem?

 

PS

the term "safe haven" was removed fromthe program over a year ago. Scouting is a 'Controlled risk" environment. (We can thank the lawyers of the world for this one.)

 

Bob White

 

[saltheart]

Figures...I posted this in the "other" thread, only to find this one now. I'll take the risk and post it here also....

 

Just some food for thought, (interjecting himself warily into the discussion...)

 

As a Scout Leader I always made it my business to bring the Scouts to the understanding that I was their Scoutmaster, a mentor, a guide, (hopefully) a good example to follow, and perhaps a friend. But I also did my best to include in that understanding that I was not their "best friend" as one of their peers might be. I was still an adult. Still (usually) a member of the their parents generation. Responsible for their care while with me, but ultimately responsible to their parents as to things that transpired within the troop while they were there...the good, the bad, and the questionable. I never defined for them where the line was that, once crossed, would obligate me to talking to Mom & Dad, as I knew I must, as these boys were not my sons, and I could not, under any circumstances, name myself to the rank of parent. The boys understood this, and the conversations we had were always with that understanding.

 

What I found in my years was that, if anything, it helped to get the boys to "think" when talking to adults in the troop. And I don't think it ever kept the boys from discussing issues that they might not feel comfortable talking to their parents about at the outset. It may have been that they used me (and the other adult leaders) as sounding boards prior to taking the discussion home...as was always encouraged by us because with important issues, Mom & Dad needed to play their part. Our part, my part, was more akin to facilitator in bringing the boy to the point where he knew he must travel that path.

 

A key element for me in this was the realization that setting the example included, in part, showing my charges that making tough decisions that might involve some personal pain and anguish between the start and the resolution of discussing issues with parents. I believed then, as I do now, that boys and girls, and even adults who have not yet learned, can become stronger and more confident when facing their issues head on with the confidence that the road they travel, no matter how bumpy, is that which they must pass.

 

[Rooster7]

I haven't posted in a while, but I can't resist the urge today. I have my foot partially in both camps:

 

99% of the time, I would defer to the parents. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. For example, suppose your son tells the SM in confidence that he visited a friend against your wishes. The SM begrudgingly agrees to keep the secret, but gives the boy a proper lecture for disobeying his parents. The problem is, the SM doesn't know what you know - that this particular friend is heavily into drugs and other bad influences. So, while the SM may have provided a good lecture, perhaps a more serious problem than lying or being disobedient is being hidden from the parents. That's the whole issue at hand...the parents are THE parents, and they should know their son better than the SM or any other adult in the kid's life. I feel, we as adults and most especially as scouters, have a moral obligation to keep the parents informed. That being said, we should advise our scouts of this fact before they decide to place their confidence in us.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND, I have an obligation to myselfto my own moral beliefs. That being said, if a boy revealed something to me and I had good reason not to trust the parents, I might refrain from advising them. This is purely hypothetical and Im sure it would be an extremely rare occurrence. Also, if I choose this course, I would do so knowing that I might have to pay a price for it (i.e., lawsuit, banished from BSA, etc.). I wont attempt to describe a specific hypothetical because there are always numerous permutations that can be derived from such an example. Id probably have to write another a dozen or more posts just to answer questions about a made-up example. My point is simply, as rare as it might be, I can envision a potential situation where I might not advise the parents BUT only if I was CONVINCED that it would be detrimental to the boy.

 

If you chose the latter, you better be right (because youre probably not in the best position to know the boy as well as his parents and/or to know all of the facts) and you better be willing to pay the consequences (legal and otherwise). My gut instinct tells me, youre better off trusting the parents unless you have incredible evidence to do otherwise. And if the evidence is that overwhelming, you probably should be getting law enforcement or social workers involved.

 

Regardless, my biggest argument for telling the parents, is this

 

If I were the parent, Id want to know. AND Id be more than hopping mad if something happened to my child that I could have prevented had the SM advised me of the situation.

 

[scoutldr]

And, Bob, no one suggested that we would "keep secrets." I said we would explore together the correct course of action...

 

Of course all of this must be taken in context...depending on the situation. Murder is one thing...worrying that you might be gay at the ripe old age of 12 is quite another. Next week they will be on to some other "crisis of conscience". What I am hearing on this thread is tantamount to reading the kid his Miranda rights before every SM conference. (Anything you say may be passed on to your parents!)

 

I guess I am tainted by my public health training...my first job was running VD (now STD) clinics for the state health department (yes, I was a CDC-trained counsellor). We were PROHIBITED by law from telling parents and we had a legal obligation to interview, test and treat minors WITH OR WITHOUT the parent's knowledge and consent. If the kids knew we would run blabbing to their parents, they would never show up for treatment and the STD rates would sky-rocket. Sometimes the good of the population outweighs the rights of the individual.

 

"Scouting is no longer a safe haven"? Do you have a reference for that? As a trainer, I want to be able to quote BSA policy accurately.

 

 

[dan]

Mike Long is back now Rooster7. Now where is NewJersyCubScouter?

[Rooster7]

scoutldr,

 

For the most part, the Scouters on this forum are all parents (with a few exceptions). So, just for giggles, let's personalize your state's mandate - I think it becomes a little clearer, or at least, a little less sterile:

 

We were PROHIBITED by law from telling YOU and we had a legal obligation to interview, test and treat YOUR CHILDREN WITH OR WITHOUT YOUR knowledge and consent.

 

You may feel good about this mandate, but I for one, think it stinks. In fact, it's just another example of how some state's have stripped their citizens of parental rights. I find it very sad that so many are willing to embrace these kinds of laws. Personally, I still believe that most parents are more competent than what some states give them credit for being. And likewise, I think most kids, when confronted with a tough situation will do the right thing - so long as society doesn't make it easy for them to do the wrong thing (i.e., pick up your free condoms from your local high school counselor, or if you missed "free condom day" - try 'Abortions R Us' a.k.a. Planned Parenthood). If I can't trust an organization to be honest with me - the parent, I don't want my children to have anything to do with them.

[matuawarrior]

Depending on the situation.

 

I would tell the youth member the following:

 

1. He can tell his parents.

 

2. I can tell his parents.

 

3. We can tell his parents together.

 

I don't believe in keeping anything from the parents. Their the main supporters of this program. We stress "Trustworthy" as our first point of the Scout Law. I feel that applies to my relationship with the parents.

 

I am not a parent, one day I will be. I want to be treated exactly the way I have treated others while their children are in my charge.

 

To keep secrets from parents, destroys their credibility and trust with thier child. And it will destroy Your credibilty as well, not to mention the reputation of your unit.

 

We cannot go around working in shades of grey. It has to be black or white, Yes or No. I will help guide the Scout to his decision but ultimately he will tell his parents. He has the 3 choices that I mentioned above.

 

Scouting helps the family program. We're supposed to supplement the family not substitute it.

 

Matua

[red feather]

Have not had this type of situation come up personally. But ditto with Saltheart and Matuawarrior.

[Eamonn]

"Controlled Risk" Environment !!

I think we lost something in the translation.

Have to admit to not following "Here We Go Again."

However, if it is my son telling you something that in someway impacts him.

You have to remember that he is a minor. He is still under the guardinship, of his parents / Me.

When a youth joins a troop or a crew, I didn't give up any of my rights as a parent.

While you might be the best Leader ever, you really do not know enough about my son, my family, and will only have one side of what has happened or will happen.

You may not like what you hear, it may sound harsh or even unfair, but that maybe the way it is.

If you think that there is abuse, you are obligated to report that.

But the bottom line is "It's not your child."

As a note of interest. At the last World Jamboree, condoms were available. The thinking was that it better that those who chose to have sex, are better off having protected sex then unprotected sex. I wasn't there, but I have been informed that female Scouts outnumbered the males: 51% female.

I have discussed these matters with my son. We are Catholic, and agree that the safest sex is abstinence.

[Zahnada]

I'm still not sure where I come down on this issue, but allow me to play a little "Devil's Advocate."

 

With all this talk about full disclosure with parents, where is the line? There are big things and there are small things. Both can seem huge in the eyes of a boy. I don't like working with hypotheticals, but I can't think of a better way to make my point.

 

Let's say you're in an SM conference and it comes out that the boy (aged 13-15) is losing faith in his religion. He wants to go experiment around with other faiths but doesn't want his parents to know for fear that they will prevent his research. This is a big issue, but the boy has some logic behind his reasons.

 

Now let's say you're in an SM conference and it comes out that the boy currently has a D in social studies. He has already decided to work hard, but doesn't want his parents to know because they'll be really mad and punish him.

 

Finally, I don't know how it came into the conversation, but let's say the boy is curious about sexuality. He knows that gays aren't allowed in scouts but he noticed that he doesn't connect well with girls and he has many close male friends. He's doesn't really understand sexuality, thinks he may be gay. You see that most likely (nothing is definite) he is just confused about what it means to be gay. But he knows his family may shun him if such a thing is even mentioned. To even be confused is enough to envoke awkwardness between him and his parents.

 

Once again, I'm sorry to deal in hypotheticals, but I hope you can see each of these situations actually occuring. I have to wonder if telling the parent may do more harm than good.

 

I'd also like to appologize for starting this topic up. My original intent was to have more people post in the "Issue and Politics" section instead of moving the debate to the Open Discussion.

 

I felt that it was important for everyone to consider what their reactions would be to secrecy and confidentiality as a scout leader. I thought that these are situations we might be thrown into without suspecting it and it would be good to get some discussion.

[matuawarrior]

There should be no line between what to to tell or when to tell parents anything regarding their children. They're the child's parents. They have the right to know. To hold back any information dealing with their child's mental or physical being is grossly negligent in our duties as Scouters. WE are there to supplement the family's program. They, the parents', signed the registration form allowing their child(ren) to join the Scouting program.

 

As per the hypotheticals,

 

The first regarding religion -- the parents still have the right to know. The Scout maybe "losing faith" but His Faith is that of his Family until he is 18 years old. There are some family's who are strong in their beliefs. To undermine the parents jurisdiction upon their child is wrong. If the Scout is a Christian, regardless of denomination, I will guide that Scout to the Book of Ephesians Chapter 6 verse 1-3.

 

The Second regarding the "D" grade -- is still the parents right to know. We have no business in school related activities. That's between the child, parent, and teacher. Here on Guam, the teachers' call the parents or guardians, anyway. But I will guide the Scout to tell his parents before they get the phone call from the teacher.

 

The Third regarding the scout's questionable sexuality -- again that is still the parents right to know. They know their child more the we do. Both parents and child may need to seek professional help which we are not trained to do. We are not Pastors, Priests, or psychiatrists to deal with that situation.

 

We cannot as leaders look at things in the short term. To the Parents, that will always be their child. We, the Scoutleader, are only there for one month to 6 years depending on the interest of the Scout. We are there temporarily. We supplement their family program when they join the BSA program. All we do is plant the seed and pray that they become better citizens than we have been.

 

Our Mission is to insure that we give the Scout every opportunity to Character Development, Citizenship, and Physical and Mental fitness. I for one take that one step further by helping to provide Spiritual Development with the permission of the parents.

 

When we start withholding information from parents in the guise of "confidentiality" regardless of how small we think the information may or may not be a detriment to their child. We are actually doing a disservice to ourselves, the BSA program, and the family involved. We have to be transparent for our Scouting Lifestyle to survive.

 

Here on Guam, we have a new law that's called "Parental Interferance" or "Interference with Parental Jurisdiction". Is it really that important to with hold any information to a parent? I don't know if other states have a similar law. But-IMHO- it's not worth it to go to jail.

 

Matua

 

[evmori]

When a Scout is with us we are responsible for him. If a Scout reveals something to me that is illegal or harmful to others then asks me not to tell his parents I would have to tell that Scout I'm sorry but I have to. Same thing if a Scout tells me he has a D in Biology. Now if a Scout tells me he is exploring other faiths & doesn't want his parents to find out because they might stop him, I would keep that confidence.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Ed you have no right to interfere in how I bring up my child unless I am endangering his well being.

Bob White