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mikeb

Ever have this happen?

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Must concur with John-in-KC in that I've had some very positive experiences with female staffers at camp. They tend to work as harder, sometimes harder, than the males.

 

Also I knew of sisters who were dual registered as ASMs in a troop, and as Venturers with a crew when they were in the 18-20 yo bracket.

 

Also had essentially an all-female crew (the guys were with their respective patrols),aged 14-15 y.o., who beat every single patrol, including a venture patrole that had came back from Philmont, and a patrol headed to Philmont.

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TCD - the answer is 2 - if the Scoutmaster certifies that all 47 Scouts and the 4 under 21 ASM's are all active. The ratio that John states holds that it's not just 1 adult for every (up to) 50 youth, but they be active as well. Because it's for the OA, you would use the OA's definition of "youth". That's how I read it, that's how it's always been interpreted in my Lodge. When I was a Lodge Vice-Chief, we actually spent some time at a meeting trying to figure this out because there was a unit that had a similar situation - they had 49 Scouts - but they had 6 under-21 ASM's. Some were arguing that the rules meant they were allowed 1 adult nomination, some were arguing they were allowed 2 - the Chapter Chief and Adviser wanted to get the Lodge interpretation - I was leaning towards the answer I gave above - and one of the Advisers, who happened to be an attorney, gave as his wise counsel something that has stuck with me. He said "If National OA had meant "youth" to mean under 21 in this instance, they would have used the term "Scouts", which all of us agree is a youth member under 18. They didn't use Scouts, they used "Youth", which the OA defines as being under 21."

 

As for the Supreme Chief of the Fire nominating and approving 18 year olds - the OA gives that person wide latitude - it's wide enough to potentially allow the SCF to make a 16 year old a candidate without going through election, say a person working at summer camp who has not been elected by his unit (perhaps because the unit leader soesn't believe in the OA"

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Carefully peeking into the can of worms I ask, Does the OA have a different definition of active?

 

 

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Ahh - the old "Active" conundrum. The OA does not define active - here it gives the Scoutmaster wide latitude in defining the term Active. Because OA is not a rank, and the OA is not a required part of a Unit's programming, the decision of a Scoutmaster on determining who is eligible within the guidelines is pretty much non-appealable. In general, though - it seems the units with the strongest programs are also those that recognize the value of the Order of the Arrow, and that those units that recognize the value of OA don't tend to be over the top on the requirements. In my experience, those units want as many people as possible to become a member.

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I've been trying for three years to re-establish OA as part of the troop program. Last year I finally got one Scout interested who is now Brotherhood and our troop OA Rep. This year we got four nominees, one of whom was sick and missed his Ordeal. But I've got four interested members and it's a start.

 

One of our problems is lack of adult support. I'm the only active adult member. With a monthly chapter meeting, three weekend fellowships, Ordeal weekends, fundraisers and other miscellaneous activities, I just can't add that much to my Scouting calendar. I have a couple other adults who were youth members, but because their sons aren't interested, neither are they. Last year I recruited someone to take our one available adult nomination. Unfortunately he had a family emergency the weekend of the Ordeal and missed it. The lodge advisors tell me they would fudge the nomination of the Scout and let him go through the Ordeal next year, but they don't really want to do that for the adult. That's not very helpful as the Scout could be easily re-elected, but the adult would have to use our one adult slot.

 

So clearly, I'm trying to finagle a second adult nomination next year. Right now we are flirting with the 51 active Scouts. We usually have our OA election before the Webelos crossover. (I don't think it's right to have brand-new Scouts voting on people they don't know.) So what if we hold youth elections in Feb. as usual, but wait until after crossover (when we will have well over 50 Scouts) to make the adult nominations? Is there any requirement that the two be linked?

 

 

 

 

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Hmmm - interesting question - and probably one best answered by the Chapter or Lodge Adviser only because I don't know what your particular Lodge would do. In general, for Units, they can nominate an adult member "upon holding an election" in which at least one youth has been elected in. In my Lodge, we've always interpeted that to mean that the eligibility on numbers of adults is based on the number of youth registered and "active" at the time of the election.

 

By flirting with 50, what do you mean? You have 47 + 4 over the age of 18 but under the age of 21? You meet the criteria for nominating 2 adults. Otherwise, just hold off on the election until after the crossover. If you have 30 lads at the meeting, a Scout only needs 15 votes to be elected. I'd only worry about brand new members if they would throw off the numbers greatly - say 6 of 10 are new and you need 5. But say 6 of 30 are new? 15 votes should still be doable.

 

On active, I did mispeak a bit - the OA's definition of active is have a current membership card and participate in "some" unit activities. It's not that they don't define active, it's that their definition of active is so loosey-goosey that they may as well have not defined it at all - there is no definitive definition of "some". So that gives the Scoutmaster wide latitude to define what active means in the context of "some".

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Wow John in KC that is about as close to open hostility as I've ever seen aimed at me. I am not the cause of boys not serving on camp staff! I was not a part of the National Council of Chiefs where this was last discussed but they have made it clear that it is a closed topic. My opinions are just as valid as any one else's opinion. Sorry if some do not agree. I do have ideas on how to get more Boys on staff but that is a topic for a different thread. And I gotta tell ya John I already wear four hats, am not paid for any of them so I do not have to find more boys to staff!

 

TCD the definetion of active is a two edged sword. It seems that it is written in such a way as to maximize the nuber of elected members. In that if you have 20 registered members and only 9 are active and for some reason only 8 of those happen to be in attendance the night of the election if you count registered= active no election happens. By using active (SM defined) an election is held, is considered valid and all those that received at least 50% of the vote are elected. 50% is based on the number of ballots turned in. Thus new cross over Scouts can and perhaps should be asked to obstain from voting.

 

I'll add more later...time for me to go to a Troop meeting.

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Further more I'm not sure you'll get it both ways but you might so be sure to have the discussion with your Lodge Adviser or Chapter Adviser. If you use registered = active in an effort to gain adults then you need more than half of those registered to be attending during the election. 18-20 ASM's are counted in these numbers. So if you have 47 +4 18 yo ASM's you may elect every youth that gets at least 50 % of the votes plus two adults may be selected. You'd need at least 26 "youth" present to have the election. If you had 26 "youth" present and voting a Scout would have to receive 13 votes to be elected. If only one youth is elected and you have 51 youth members you still get to submit two adults, that is 21 years and older. Adults do not have to meet first class but they do have to meet the camping requirements. Adults are selected not for the honor but for what they can offer to the OA and the youth involved, usually means transportation and support. Elections can only occur once a year and I doubt that any Lodge will allow a youth election than months later an adult selection but check with your local Lodge because they could do this.

 

In my lodge the LEC (lodge exec. committee, only youth Lodge and Chapter officers have a vote) actually voted to accept two units elections just days before the first annual Ordeal in an effort to increase those eligible for election with the hope that more would be elected. The point is once each year is the rule but each Lodge picks when that will occur. So they might split youth and adult selection. But also keep in mind that even though a unit Troop or Team nominates an adult they are not guaranteed that they will be selected by the Lodge. Although I've not know Lodges to exclude those nominated, but it could happen.

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I may be sticking my foot in mouth again but I believe a unit only has to hold a election, not elect a youth to enable the committee to put forward a adult canidate.

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I'll be gentle as I take that foot out of your mouth for you.

 

According to the GOA, units are allowed to select an adult only if a youth has been elected at a unit election. If an election is held, and no youth is elected, the unit does not get an adult selection that year.

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Two Questions:

 

Question A.

17 year old Eagle Scout Elected and "tapped out" in July; 18th birthday in August;

Plans on registering as ASM;

Ordeal is after his birthday later in August.

Can he still participate in this ordeal and join OA as an adult member?

 

Question B.

Same guy, 17 year old Eagle Scout Elected and "tapped out" in July;

18th birthday in August;

Plans on registering as ASM;

May not be able to attend the Ordeal in August

Can he be re-elected as an Adult candidate at the next election in order to go to the next Ordeal in May?

 

Jo

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Question A.

 

Yes, he can. Only he'll be a youth member in the eyes of the OA. Anyone 20 and under is a youth in the Order.

 

Question B.

 

He doesn't have to be re-elected as an adult. He's a youth in the eyes of the OA.

 

Drawing on my hazy memories, prospective members elected or selected have up to a year to complete the Ordeal - at least that's the way it was done in my home lodge. We had only three inductions weekends a year, so it was likely that a candidate might not be able to attend the first one after election or selection.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

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He has a year from the election to go through an Ordeal. Also if memory serves, any 18-20 YO in a troop goes through the election process if memory serves, as in the OA they are youth until 21. Gotta check my guide to be 100%

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