silver-shark 10 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 FScouter Our Unit Commisioner told us about a year ago that National was going to put a ban on white gas products in about 2 years. I don't know if this is part of, or even a spinoff of the same myth or not. Regardless, we have been buying propane replacement equipment as it has become needed, just in case. Link to post Share on other sites
silver-shark 10 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Bob White Dont get me wrong, I believe the one about an active scout merely being registered is a myth as well. My response to the Eagle Dad was to chuckle, shake my head and change the subject, since the boy had already passed his Eagle Board. Be active in your troop and patrol. Page 169 tells us that, To gain full advantage of all that scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventure. If youre there you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. Be present how often? One meeting One activity 20% of the time 50% of the time Page 14 tells us, Though you can advance at your own pace, active scouts will usually earn First Class within a year of joining a troop. Could a boy do this by attending 50% of meetings or activities? Probably not. 60%? Probably not. 80+%? Probably. How active should a boy be, to be considered active for rank advancement? The Second Class and First Class requirements give us specific examples, by the number of activities that they have to attend, not by a time line. This would seem to be a much better way of making sure that they are participating in the process, but for some reason this is not the case for the higher ranks. A boy could theoretically hold the position of Librarian for 16 months. Tell the boys in the troop to call him when they need a Merit Badge Pamphlet. Show up to only those meetings, (possibly as low as 10% to 20%) along with his minimum number of service hours, and be considered active by the book to advance from First Class to Eagle Scout. There are many boys and parents out there that think this way. There are many Paper Eagles out there. When a troop does not have a policy that dictates a minimum standard to be considered active in that particular troop, that is when scouters are forced to look at things like Demonstrate Scout Spirit by living by the Scout Oath (Promise) and the Scout Law in your everyday life. There are literally thousands of ways that each of the 12 points of the Scout Law can be interpreted. It would be very easy to use the Scout Spirit area to dictate attendance. If a scout is not in attendance, he is not being obedient, trustworthy, or loyal to the notion that he is to help train younger scouts in the manner that he himself was trained. He is not being helpful to the other older scouts that are taking his turn at planning or training the younger scouts, or to the younger scouts. Attendance by older scouts, those of First Class or higher, is a key element for the success of any troop. It is our job as SMs and ASMs to interpret the meaning of a multitude of things that have been presented vaguely by the BSA. Many deservedly so on their part. A troop that camps 25 nights per year SHOULD have a different standard of attendance from one that only camps 10 nights per year. This is one small example of where Troop Policies are helpful for all concerned. To let them know in advance what the expectations are rather than after the fact. Would it be a myth to state that Troop Policies are unnecessary, when there are so many areas left intentionally vague, and so many people looking for ways to skirt the intent of what IS there? How can we offer a consistent, well informed, thorough, program that is fair to all of the boys in a given troop without them? Link to post Share on other sites
FScouter 24 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Another little tidbit we "learned" at Roundtable is that to be in compliance with the principles of Leave No Trace, human waste must be carried out of the backcountry. In other words it is not appropriate to use a trowel and squat behind a tree. We were also informed that "very soon" the Forest Service will require that "all" human waste be packed out throughout the national forest system. Add an eleventh item to the list of ten essentials: a big canteen with a skull & crossbones painted on the side. Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 FScouter, To coin an old phrase, "does a bear poop in the woods?" I'm a firm beliver in Leave No Trace, but wouldn't that be going to an extreme? I mean our Native American friends pooped in the woods for centuries and I don't think it ruined the ecology for us today. I know I don't want to be the designated "potty" boy who has to pack the baggies out on a three day hike. Link to post Share on other sites
jbroganjr 10 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 FScouter I heard the same nonsense at Woodbadge on the Leave No Trace lecture. I asked to see the goverment application form or job description for the ranger who has to enforce this supposed requirement. What's next, Scouters bringing pooper scoopers to the woods to clean up after the animals? Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 The practice of packing out everything you bring in including your own body waste has been a basic elemnet of low impact camping and Leave No Trace camping for many years. It is a courtesy practiced by most serious hikers and back-country campers. The fact that animals leave droppings in the woods in not an invitation for us to do so as well. Animals also drill into and fell live trees. Does that give a conservation oriented program the right to do so? Animals deficate in the same waters they eat and drink from. Any takers on that on? Animal droppings help to spread many plant species, what part of your diet makes that functional? But hey, indians used to do it. Indians had far different diets then we do, they lacked the technology of of plastic bags, they had no where else to take the waste to, and it was their land at the time. If you want to deficate in your own yard go ahead, but I am a part owner of those parks you want to leave your stool in and I don't appreciate the gesture. The BSA's Leave Do Trace Program was designed by the folks at The National park Service, and Outdoor Magazine. They have far more experience and knowledge in the area of outdoor hiking technique and conservation then any of us posting on this board. I think we need to develop a little more sense before we decide what the non-sense is. No one said it was an enforced law. It is a courtesy and a skill. As far as who the poor boy is who has to carry it...If you brought it in with you, then you carry it out. Leave only footprints, take only pictures, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to post Share on other sites
silver-shark 10 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Hey Folks, Here's what the BSA actually has to say in their "Leave No Trace" pamphlet. You can geta copy at your Council Office or Scout Store, or online at www.scouting.org. "3. Dispose of Waste Properly (Pack It In, Pack It Out) This simple yet effective saying motivates backcountry visitors to take their trash home with them. It makes sense to carry out of the backcountry the extra materials taken there by your group or others. Inspect your campsite for trash or spilled foods. Accept the challenge of packing out all trash, leftover food, and litter. Sanitation Backcountry users create body waste and wastewater that require proper disposal. Wastewater. Help prevent contamination of natural water sources: After straining food particles, properly dispose of dishwater by dispersing at least 200 feet (about 80 to 100 strides for a youth) from springs, streams, and lakes. Use biodegradable soap 200 feet or more from any water source. Human Waste. Proper human waste disposal helps prevent the spread of disease and exposure to others. Catholes 6 to 8 inches deep in humus and 200 feet from water, trails, and campsites are often the easiest and most practical way to dispose of feces." Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 What the Leave No Trace training brochure 21-105 says is that is the easiest manner. There are areas of backcountry where this is not possible, and local guidelines will request you pack out your waste. More info can be found by contacting the local Fish and Wildlife Service, The Forest Service, or The National Park you are planning to visit. BW Link to post Share on other sites
FScouter 24 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Pack out you poop may indeed be a very desirable practice. Ive stepped behind many a tree only to find that I wasnt the first one. Lots of people forget to bring their trowel. Pack it out may be a good practice in high use areas above timberline where there simply is no vegetation and not even much dirt in which to dig a cathole. The myth is that BSA requires that poop be packed out. The myth is that pack out your poop is a principle of Leave No Trace. What was being reported at our Roundtable was that the principals of Leave No Trace require that human waste must be packed out. A publication was passed out that discussed the seven principles of leave no trace. The flier (which is entitled The Principles of Leave No Trace, BSA publication # 21-105) states Catholes 6 to 8 inches deep in humus and 200 feet from water, trails, and campsite are often the easiest and most practical way to dispose of feces. There is no mention at all about pack out your poop. The Boy Scout Handbook has three pages that discuss Principles of Leave No Trace and catholes, but nothing about pack it out. That BSA requires you to pack out your poop is a myth. Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted May 8, 2003 Author Share Posted May 8, 2003 It's good to know that we're surrounded by Scouters who really know their scat! Sorry, guys. I just couldn't resist. I hope you both laughed. DS Link to post Share on other sites
KoreaScouter 13 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 I'm still laughing! KS Link to post Share on other sites
dan 10 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 is this what you do on your vacation, discuss poop? BOY Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted May 9, 2003 Author Share Posted May 9, 2003 I'm back from vacation. I don't weather it well. So I guess I discuss poop for a living. I'm not sure that's any better! KoreaScouter, I'm glad you liked it. It's good to be back. DS Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted May 9, 2003 Share Posted May 9, 2003 I go away for three days to Las Vegas (business trip, a business trip to Las Vegas, what an oxymoron)and I come back to a discussion of scat. Well I have to lend in my opinion. The definitive scat has to be Minnie the Moocher sung by Cab Calloway, although Dizzy Gillespie and Louis Armstrong didnt do to badly either and on the female side Ella Fitzgerald cant sound bad no matter what she does, and she does sing scat as well. so in conclusion Hi-Dee-Hi-Dee-Hi-Dee-Hoe Hi-Dee-Hi-Dee-Hi-Dee-Hoe Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted May 9, 2003 Share Posted May 9, 2003 I had a participant at a Scout Roundtable conference bring a pre-opening activity called "You Don't Know Scat". He had collected the scat of various woodland creatures, let them dy and then mounted them on a board. The scat was then covered in a poly-urethane coat to seal them. The challenge of course was to identify the animal that left the droppings. It was very funny and very educational as well. Bob Link to post Share on other sites
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