Atheist uprooting Christmas

[SSScout 1616]

Let us hope/pray (choose one) that Scouter Terry has found the end to his troubles (I do not know the specifics), and has found the time to tend to his wonderful website.

 

It really would be appropriate to have a Faith and Chaplaincy forum (look at this series!), thus alleviating the load on the I&P and other forums.

 

Everybody has occasions to note, celebrate, talk about, pass on to our progeny. Tell the story of Channakah, Jesus' birth, Bahai's revelation and imprisoment, Mohamad's story, your grandfather's trek across the Oregon Trail, whatever it is.

It becomes incumbent on the government (here in the US, at least) to do just about nothing about it. If granddad was a wonderful man and helped build the community, it might be appropriate for the county council to vote a "thank you" resolution, but set up a display on the lawn of the courthouse?

We erect statues and monuments to folks that are important in our history, and not just military people either, thankfully. ((if the general's horse has all legs on the ground, or if it has one leg up, or both front legs up, does that indicate anything special about the rider?)).

Our faith is a special category of this dicussion. If we say "thank you" to grandfather, and he says "thank you" to God, well, here is our quandary. How to note grandfather's gratitude after his death?

I think it it wonderful when the Houses of Worship in our area put up displays for their various holidays. We have a road, New Hampshire Ave., that is known locally as the "Avenue of Churches". It runs almost 30 miles from Washington DC thru Murlin, and it has almost every possible faith sitting along it's length: Hindu, Baptist, Unitarian, Evangelical, Methodist, Jewish, Orthodox (three kinds), Budhist (three kinds), Muslim, Catholic (at least two kinds), and if you go a mile or two or three to either side, you can find three Quaker meetings, a Zoroaster house(?), many Iglesias de Deos, a Bahai temple, Church of JC of LDS, and a few that slip my mind.

Some celebrate, some do not their various Important Days. Displays range from none (note the Quakers) to live nativity scenes to walk thru Jeruselum market(no room at the Inn, sorry, keep moving please) to 12'x20' tall real flame Menorahs. One hispanic Catholic Church leads parades thru the local streets celebrating Christs birth and death and resurrection (legal permit allowed).

Such is the richness of our nation. If the athiest among us want to join together and celebrate their lack of God, bully for them. I will still invite them to "come and see" at our Meeting, and sit in worship with us First Day.

I see no need for any government to place a religious display on any public land. Holidays a good, any excuse for a party, I say, but at least around here, there is no need for the guvmint to remind the passing motorist of the time of year.

That said, if you are in the neighborhood this First Day morning (sunday for you non-Friends), come around for our "live sheep" pageant. (very untraditional).

 

[Twocubdad 665]

I stand corrected, short. I agree with Calico as well.

 

Must be this weird green tea the wife has me on. Need to go back to the real joe.

[qwazse 4345]

SSSc:It really would be appropriate to have a Faith and Chaplaincy forum (look at this series!), thus alleviating the load on the I&P and other forums.

 

Face it, a lot of us simply don't believe and the separation of F&C and I&P!

 

I can see it now. One of us makes a comment with religious overtones and SSSc and his thought police will petition Terry to move it to the virtual "Avenue of Churches" and leave it there.

 

This entire thread is not about Faith and Chaplaincy. This is about what policy should be used to handle the issue of unfettered expression of religion. It is in exactly the right forum for this site.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I know how much we love entymology and I have a thought.

 

There are very few people, comparatively speaking, who actually celebrate Christmas.

 

Our society as a whole uses lots of expressions that are contractions of phrases. The standard Good-Bye originally came from the expression "May God Bless You", Most people realize the symbol of the season Santa Claus came from Saint Nicholas. Heck, even the term Bedlam comes to us as a contraction of Bethlehem Royal Hospital.

 

So, we look at Christmas. Originally it was Christ's Mass, celebrated on the day we honor the birth of Jesus. I get a hoot when I hear people say "Keep Christ in Christmas" when they are only talking about the first word in the phrase. I say keep the Mass in Christmas and unless you intend on being at Mass on Dec 25, don't be saying Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays is much more truthful. You can celebrate Christ's birth, just don't call it Christmas, unless you attend Mass.

 

PS. Still in the Vulgate, not back to Latin as yet

[moosetracker 132]

OldGray - Never thought of it that way.. So I was Protestant, I now am just self-advised.. So now I should say Happy Holidays.. But as a Protestant, we don't hold Mass, we hold services.. So I should have been saying Merry Christservice.. Never occured to me that "mas" meant Mass like a Catholic Mass, since all Protestants call it Christmas without ever holding a Mass..

[qwazse 4345]

MT: The term applies to protestant worship as well. And when I grew up, 'dem Presbyterians served communion then.

 

Besides, Meryl would be really upset if we took the mass out of Newton's day!

[CalicoPenn 729]

"Looking at the above qoute from Packsaddle"

 

Well, if I have to be confused with anyone else on this forum, Packsaddle is probably in my top five.

[drmbear 10]

I'm just glad that when I was a youth in Scouting that the leaders I spent time with understood the higher ideals of respect, kindness, brotherhood, and always seeking those things that bring us together rather than divide us. It bothers me to no end that this thing that I care so much about, Scouting, here in the USA has decided to take a stand for hatred and discrimination. I had always heard that B-P believed that Scouting could be a bridge that eliminated the need and desire for war around the world. Since religious differences seem to be a foundational element behind so many wars, the idea that the BSA stepped in to set up conditions of intollerance is hard to comprehend. No matter how hard I work in my own unit to promote tollerance and acceptance, there are those in the community that will never see past BSA discrimination and hold it against me, my son, my Scouts, whenever we are out in uniform. Of course I think it was rude and wrong what these folks in LA did. If they had gone out to present something they love about the season and time of year without knocking anything others believe, I doubt we would ever have seen anything about it in the news. I feel nearly as bad about BSA's stand concerning sexual preference and religion, as I've already stated.

[skeptic 997]

drmbear;

 

If you read B.P.'s writings, they are full of religious references and belief in a higher power. He too felt that Scouting needed to have a foundation built on a spiritual base. But he also recognized that its content would and should be dictated by the family and the scout themselves. No where did he ever indicate a complete separation of spiritual beliefs from the program. If you want Scouting, as it was created, then it MUST have that personal spiritual connection. Now, the other element should, IMO, be a local unit decision.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Besides, Meryl would be really upset if we took the mass out of Newton's day!

 

Yeah, it'd go by way too fast otherwise.

[moosetracker 132]

Drmbear - Of course I think it was rude and wrong what these folks in LA did. If they had gone out to present something they love about the season and time of year without knocking anything others believe, I doubt we would ever have seen anything about it in the news.

 

I guess this is how I feel about it also.. Had the atheists won the lotteries and just put up what they like about this time of year.. Be that Festivus and Momentous with lots of apples and Isaac Newton figurines.. Or just some winter wonderland scene.. Or as suggested by some just given the view back to the people and put a low plaque up saying This scene was brought to you by your neighborhood Atheist group.. Maybe the story would not be sensational, and get the storyline this did. But it would tell their neighborhood that atheists are good neighbors, and can contribute to positively to society rather than tear it asunder..

 

Also if I lived in this neighborhood I would be embarrassed to have my parents or others from their generation see the display.. It speaks volumes about how my generation and the ones after mine have become so much more self-centered and uncaring..

 

[drmbear 10]

I agree that B-P included a lot of his own spirituality in his writings - part of being a minister's kid. But not to the extent of demanding what or how you have to believe. He recognized it as a personal matter among families, and that people around the world are different. To him that was okay. It seems to me, and in my experiences with athiests and humanists and others, that even though there may not be a belief in God the way a Christian might believe, they still value greatly inner spiritual values of goodness, service, intellect and thought, a wonder of the world around us, mysteries of the universe, and more. A moral compass need not only come from the Bible. The ideals B-P suggested were to find that thing that provides foundation, sustenance, strength - and the way I see it for many people their faith does that. Humanists may find the same in reason, and athiests in science, and pagans in the wonders of nature. I think that as soon as we start looking for reasons to divide by saying "my beliefs are better than yours..." we start falling outside the principles of Scouting I learned. A Scout shouldn't be afraid to share his beliefs so long as he connects with that deeper understanding of how it can affect his life.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

On further review...

 

Perhaps what other people beleive and say and do has very little to do with my understanding of God and I should not worry about what other people say and do. I need only respect their beliefs and hold to my own. If we had a society where everyone respected each other enough to allow them to live the life they wished, as long as it did not harm others (of course)perhaps we would be closer to Thomas Moore's Utopia than ever

 

Its a thought

 

 

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