Do people know what socialism IS?

[Eamonn 61]

Back in the day!

When I was a young college student in England I was a member of the Young Socialist Party.

Back then I whole heartily did believe that socialism was the way to go and that us students and young people were going to save the world.

Over time my ideals softened and I stopped being active in the party and joined the Labour Party.

The then Labour Party in the UK was having a lot of internal problems. Some party members (Me included.) Wanted the party to be a lot more left-wing than it was. We demanded nuclear disarmament, wanted better health care, better care for our old age pensioners and the unions to have more power and a bigger say in how things were being run and how things were done.

Today?

Thanks to a lot of luck and some very hard work, I consider myself to be - What I'd call comfortable.

I don't want for anything, if there is something that I want or might like to have? I can afford to buy it.

While thanks to some very shady shenanigans by a lot of very greedy banks and the like I have seen a great deal of my money just disappear. I'm not happy about that.

I'm not happy when I see that because of just sheer out and out greed social programs that are intended to help the people who need our help the most are being cut.

I'm not happy when I see school districts having to make cuts that will in time result in kids leaving school with an education which doesn't allow them or the country to be able to compete.

I'm not happy when I see the little old Lady standing in front of me in the drug store hand over a large sum of cash for her medicine.

I at times feel very guilty. I suffer from the "I'm alright Jack". Which I know is just wrong.

Maybe it's easy being left wing or if you like a socialist? When you are well heeled?

But for me the mark of a truly civilized country is shown by the way we look after the poorest and worst off.

I think if I'd had the power when the greed of these banks became apparent I'd have nationalized all of them.

Ea.

[SR540Beaver 116]

Having worked in the banking industry for 30+ years, I can tell you that much of the claims of greedy, evil bankers is boogey man stuff. Lumping Wall Street and big financial houses in with banks, savings and loans and credit unions is like lumping brain surgeons in with the nurse at the free clinic. They are in a related field, but it is apples and oranges. Banks are a business like any other business. They provide products and services at a cost to the consumer. For those folks who got bent out of shape over some of the banks beginning to charge $5 to use your card, they haven't the first clue what is involved in card service for a bank. The average Joe's checking account where he gets a direct deposit from his employer twice a month isn't what the bank uses for making car loans to the same consumer. There just isn't much money to be made in checking accounts. In fact, it typically costs banks to service these accounts. Because of that, you see service charges creeping higher all the time......just like you see the price of gas or a gallon of milk increase. While I say I work in th ebanking industry, I have spent most of the last 3 decades working for vendors who provide services to bank to do their data processing. Banks don't just rake in gold everyday and count it at no cost to them. Data systems cost a lot. Brick and mortar branches cost a lot. Utilities cost a lot. Payroll and benefits cost a lot. Etc., etc., etc., just like any business. Add on top of that how heavily regulated the banking industry is. I know a lot of you think bankers are shysters and crooks who can get away with just about any criminal activity they want. False. Banks have whole departments of people and pay for data services that do nothing but make sure they remain incompliance with government regulations. Why? Because federal auditors can walk thru the door at any minute and stay for the next month or more with complete access to all of your data to look for any irregularities. If they find them, you can pay AND pay BIG for not being in compliance.

 

Now, Wall Street and the stock market? Different animal altogether. It's basically gambling, just like going to the casino. No one forces people to play the stock market or eve ncontribute to their company's 401k. We choose to do that. When the market is up, we can make good money. When the market is down, we can lose big. I know, I've lost too. But blaming someone else for your losses is like blaming the blackjack dealer at the casino for dealing you a bad hand. No one made you walk into the casino and play.

 

Blame banks all you want. They are simply businesses with folks like me working in them......you know, folks just like you in your chosen profession. They are not crooks or greedy. They deal in money like GMC deals in nuts and bolts. We do it because it turns a profit and pays the bills.

[BDPT00 41]

Haven't read everything here, but I'll tell you what I think makes this country lean too close to socialism: When more than 50% of our voters work for the government. Our government keeps getting bigger and bigger, and the people "on the take" are more interested in even bigger government by way of tax increases. Why shouldn't they be? If you work for the government, you're better off if the government gets more voters. You're voting yourself a raise every time taxes are increased.

Pretty soon, the government will own everything ... including our banks, businesses, homes and property. We're getting there.

BDPT00

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

I do not think the 50% number is correct--it does not pass the smell test.

 

BDP about 13-15% of the workforce works for the governemnt (Fed, State, Local, Schools, Armed Forces, Post Office) lets be generous and say 20 million.

 

There was in 2004 about 50 million registered Republicans and 70 registered Democrats...that is 120 million. To help lets not count Indys. Not 50 percent.

 

But lets say who actually vote in National elections. Roughly 90-120 million in a presidential and 65-80 million in a big congressional year. Still not 50 percent.

 

I can be off here or there but it does not make it. I would agree that it would be logical if government workers vote more than average. However in my experience they vote against their own interests a lot too.

[BS-87 30]

Tampa - Govt. workers do not vote against their "personal interests" very often. They know who they work for.

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

Ah contare, I worked for Fed, State, and Local governments and have known folks who are Libertarians who rail against all government (yet manage to pick up their paychecks). True enough it is a minority but not as much as you think. I usually tell them to stop being hypocrite and quit. But they never do.

[BS-87 30]

Maybe that's why govt. bureaucracies are so ineffective.

 

Anyone there with any sense has a strong moral objection to being there.

[BDPT00 41]

I didn't say we were there yet, but the bigger we allow government to get by raising taxes and spending our money as if it were their own (because they know what's good for us), the closer we get to what I'd consider to be socialism.

And maybe I should restate it a little better what it means to "work for the government." Anyone who is paid by my taxes "works for the government," but let's not forget that there are also a lot of people who "work the system." They're paid by taxes, too, and they vote.

BDPT00

[Eamonn 61]

" "on the take" "

How dare you!

Last time I looked the guys who wear the uniforms of the United States armed services were paid with tax payers money.

The doctors and nurses who work in Veterans hospitals?

Are they also on the take?

What about the police?

Yes I get paid with money paid by PA tax payers.

I spend eight hours a day five days a week with the guys who have committed some really nasty crimes.

I don't wear a stab proof vest because I'm cold.

While I think that I'm fairly well compensated and have a good benefit package.

I take offense to anyone saying that I'm "on the take"

Sure we could save a lot of money if we just let all of these guys out of jail and set them free to do what they do best.

How dare you say such a thing.

Eamonn.

[BDPT00 41]

I was in a foul mood when I wrote that, and I just reread it. Some previous post set me off. Sorry. I have no beef with those who work for a living, especially those who do the jobs most would never dream of.

My complaint has to do with 10 guys doing the job of 2. I used to work for the government, too. A guy isn't good at his job, so he gets promoted to get him out of the way. I've seen it. I see daily the disaster created by our education system. We keep adding more and more administrative positions. We have twice as many admin and support people as we do teachers, and we struggle to get fewer than 30 in a classroom. Can we fix it? No. Government unions get in the way, and then they tell their people how to vote. In the name of making things better, we continually make them worse ... how? ... by adding more people, and more layers of advisors and supervisors and specialists. If it doesn't work, add some more, then ask for higher taxes. Every person added equals another vote.

Skeptical? No, I love this country, and generally keep my mouth shut and pay my taxes. I'm foolish enough to trust the people we elect, because I believe they honestly want to serve.

I have relatives who work for the tax payer, and all I hear about is how much more vacation, personal time and holidays they have that I don't get, how simple their job is, how long 'til retirement, and how much they hate their job. I also know they don't vote the same way I do.

That's enough. Here, I had no intention of getting into this, and I crossed a line. Sorry, Eamonn. What I wrote looks really bad as I look back at it, and I understand your disdain.

Nevertheless, my point was that the bigger the government gets, the closer we get to socialism.

BDPT00

[Lisabob 13]

"We have twice as many admin and support people as we do teachers, and we struggle to get fewer than 30 in a classroom. Can we fix it? No. Government unions get in the way, and then they tell their people how to vote. In the name of making things better, we continually make them worse ... how? ... by adding more people, and more layers of advisors and supervisors and specialists."

 

As someone involved with a teacher's union, let me assure you of a couple of things from the "inside" perspective.

 

1. It sure isn't teacher's unions who are keeping class sizes above 30. Every teacher's union I've ever heard of acknowledges the benefits of smaller class sizes and advocates for program design and funding to allow for this.

 

What creates bigger class sizes is budget pressures - usually decided by local and state boards & legislatures (never decided by the teacher unions, that's for darn sure). When states continually cut K-12 funding and local school boards refuse to allocate money in ways that support smaller class sizes, the end result is that more students get crammed into fewer classes to "save money" on teacher salaries/hire fewer teachers. Everybody - especially teachers and their unions - knows this is not educationally optimal and would rather see smaller classes.

 

2. So teacher's unions try to provide political information to their members. So what? So does every other interest group in America. Nobody forces teachers to listen to the information provided and - speaking as a union leader - I promise you, we're not frog-marching people into the voting booth and forcing them to vote one way or another. And members of teacher unions who don't agree with the political activity of their unions can receive a refund of any money that they pay in dues, which goes to supporting political activities. (just as is the case with any other unions, in most states)

 

Teacher's unions are simply doing what ALL interest groups do. And since interest groups represent just about the only effective way for ordinary, non-bazillionaire- people to come together in groups and advocate for the things that matter to them, I don't see why this is a problem. Unless, of course, you actually prefer that individual teachers have no political voice in the decisions made by government about education policy and their workplace. (And why should teachers be the only ones without a voice, especially in a field where they're the experts!)

 

Last thing - so you hear people complain about all their vacation, etc. Well in what field or part of your work world have you ever existed where somebody isn't complaining about something? Seems to be a fact of human existence. But really, if your complaint is "they've got it good," I'd ask you - shouldn't everybody get honest pay for honest work? A few complainers and loafers aside (and believe me, as a union leader, we don't encourage or defend slackers when they get into trouble for slacking. We do encourage due process to ensure that discipline or remediation happens fairly, but then, most people are in favor of fairness, especially when it comes to themselves) - maybe what we need is more unions, not fewer unions.

 

 

[Jay K 15]

SOCIALISM

You have 2 cows.

You give one to your neighbor.

 

I couldn't resist.

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

Gee whiz folks. When did we imbue private enterprise with the mantle of super-efficiency?

 

Law firms, insurance companies, phone companies, etc they are all models of low costs and super cheerful service?

 

If someone doesn't like the road project I supervise, guess what I get harassing calls at my house when they put my personal phone number in their front yard. Does that happen to "bill" at the call center. If I am rude to a member of the public who swears at me --guess what I get fired.

 

I am doing 5-count em-5 jobs right now as government as shrunk. Pay frozen for third year in a road but I do not complain because I am grateful to have a job. (and by the way really no pension at all anymore).

 

I know when I talk to my scouts I teach them to respect their elected leaders, understand how government works, and -if they do not like it- work to change the system. I discourage cheap shots...

[Beavah 205]

It sure isn't teacher's unions who are keeping class sizes above 30

 

Yes and no, Lisabob.

 

Yah, sure, they lobby for smaller class sizes, but when it comes to negotiating they take da unsustainable salary increase and the gold-plated benefit package every day and twice on Sunday. Da expenses of a school district are salaries. Only way yeh run into budget difficulties that compromise class size is if salaries and benefits are increasin' faster than revenues. And since revenues are mostly tied to inflation of property values (or sales tax commerce), they're fixed by the general economic climate that all of da local citizens are experiencing.

 

By and large da teachers unions also eat their young. Voting power is always with those with seniority, as is job security, performance notwithstanding. Given a choice, they often opt for salary increases above steps even if it means layoffs for da younger members down the road.

 

Of course school districts and boards aren't blameless, eh? What property owner wouldn't want to get a great service for free, eh? Sometimes da board represents that interest. And because of da government near-monopoly on education, teachers don't have the ability to switch employers or set up their own practice as easily as other professionals. So there's a place for unions in da public sector. I think Walker and his ilk overstepped in that regard.

 

Overall, though, I agree with BDP, eh? There is a real risk of havin' too much of da GDP controlled by government. Not just from folks voting themselves largess, but because of da government's ability to then use economic leverage against large segments of da voting populace.

 

Beavah

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

Yes I would say that having the Govt in charge of a large segment of the economy has unintended consequences...however there are many different governments involved...I am amazed at how much influence the TVA has in the Tennessee area for example.

 

That said we tend to imbue "private enterprise" with many unearned virtues; we like to think our economy is a lot of mom and pops. However it seems that the economy is largely being made of up larger and larger corporation and they are controlling the national and state government agendas...often to our detriment. I think we are heading into another era of corporate monopolies.