LDS, Christians, and Politics

[evmori 11]

Yes Roman Catholics & Orthodoxs have different books in their Bible. But their reference is the Bible. There is no Book of Catholic or Book of Orthodox or Book of Methodist or Book of Presbyterian. The Book of Mormon is their main reference, not the Bible.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[Gold Winger 9]

Different books are different books. What is the Bible? The Old Testament? The New Testament? Wait! There are different versions of those. So the Mormons use yet a different version. The Mormons that I know use the old and new testaments, they just have a few more books to thump than you do.

[Beavah 205]

But at some time for any faith, near the origin of that faith, there must have been very few followers. My idea was that with a small population and little time to develop differences, they might have been more unified. I could be wrong but at least it seems to work that way today with churches (there's that uniformitarianism thing again). In our area anyway...the little ones seem to have fewer squabbles.

 

It's a nice theory, but there's no evidence of it. Yeh have to sit through small Christian churches rippin' themselves apart over who to select for the next pastor to understand, eh? Yah, sure, for as long as the founder is alive, maybe. And only maybe. Jesus spent half of his time yellin' at the apostles.

 

By contrast, there is strong evidence of a general reduction in da number of separate religions worldwide. And as close as I can tell, there isn't any significant internationalism that doesn't have its root in religion (and typically folks with a strongly Christian bent, or at least who were raised in a Christian culture). If yeh want people to reach beyond national self-interest (or tribal self-interest), there has to be some common idea that's greater than Nation for them to buy into. A notion of "World Citizen" is only very recent, eh? Before that, there was only religion. And it's not insignifiant that the only places a notion of "World Citizen" really has any traction is in countries that are culturally Christian.

 

Da problem is that if yeh don't have an absolute morality, there's never any justification for intervention. No reason to stop genocide if it's not in your national interest to do so. No reason to sacrifice in order to help da starving. The notion of a "brotherhood of man" that yeh take for granted is a religious notion, in its origin and practice.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah 205]

The Mormons that I know use the old and new testaments, they just have a few more books to thump than you do.

 

Yah, and that's the point, eh?

 

Christians have a few books more in their holy scripture than Jews, eh?

 

Those few books change the character of the original scriptures enough that I don't think many Jews would consider Presbyterians to be Jewish. Those new books are new and novel and therefore outside Judaism.

 

No different with Mormons. If da additional books change the character of the original scriptures enough by bein' new and novel, then yeh have something that may be based on Christianity, just as Christianity was based on Judaism, but is no longer Christian.

 

Yeh might say da same about Islam, which added its own "book of Mormon" to the Judeo-Christian scriptures, and called it the Koran.

 

 

[Gold Winger 9]

"Christians have a few books more in their holy scripture than Jews, eh?"

 

Catholics have more than protestants, so I guess that they aren't Christians either.

 

A Christian isn't defined by the book he reads. Christians are people who have accepted Christ as the Messiah. Jews haven't and neither have Muslims. Mormons have.

[allangr1024 71]

If our original discussion was the influence of religion in politics, or the influence of a candidates religion on his politics, then we should examine the religious authorities in the candidates chosen religion for a clue to his political outlook and practice.

 

Although the famous mormon scripture is the book of morman, as I understand it, the real writing that defines the LDS church is a work by Joseph Smith called the "Doctrines and Covenants". This was originally published as "The Book of Commands". This describes the infallable role of the prophet Joseph Smith, and his role to speek the word of God to his followers. The practice of the LDS church is to recieve revelation from the living prophet and impose that revelation and its intrerpreted version, called Doctrine, on the followers. In the LDS, authority flows from the person of the Prophet down to the church leaders, biships and ward leaders (I can't recall their titles) and from there to the church members. My problem is that the LDS church is not a very democratic institution, so any influence it has on a polititian would be to develop anti democracy, authoritarian view and practices into his political underpinnings.

 

I find that the religious institution closest in practice to the LDS church is the Roman Catholic Church. Very similar. Both have a leader(Pope and Prophet) who claims to speak EX-CATHEDRA the revelation of God. They both have an authoritarian hierarchy with the church member down on the recieving end, with a system that can change its message with the advent of a new leader. Both honor a volume of scripture but are not bound by it. Therefore the comparison between John Kennedy and Romney is valid. The reason JFK needed to make his speech was that people were afraid that JFK would have to do what the Pope said. Will the Prophet be able to have undo influence on Romney.

 

American republican democracy was heavily influenced by the New England Congregational Churches, which had a practice of letting the church members vote on things like the hiring of a new pastor and the management of buildings and the like. John Adams came directly from this tradition, his father being a Congregationalist minister. He definately showed this kind of world view in his battle for the Declaration of Independance and the bill of rights. If he misstepped in his watch as president, then it shows that within the broad background each man brings with him, there are times that he stands on his own.

 

Mormanism Christian? It is a subject beyond this discussion. Let everyone who worries about this examine the LDS faith and documents, and compare to the major christian denominations. Mormanism valid? It is up to the voters. Let them decide.

[scoutingagain 20]

"Catholics have more than protestants, so I guess that they aren't Christians either"

 

There are certainly those that identify themselves as Christians that would agree with this statement and there are many Catholics that would define their faith as the one true Christian faith and others as non-Christian.

 

Asking who the real Christians are, is like asking which is the one true faith.

 

SA

 

[Gold Winger 9]

The Orthodox declare their church to be the one true church, since that is my church of record, I guess that I'm right and the rest of you are wrong.

 

Protestants blow with the wind. The Roman Catholics seek relevancy in today's world. The Orthodox haven't changed anything significant in about 1,000 years. We have it nailed!

 

 

[evmori 11]

Ya really need to learn a little more GW. Making statements like Protestants blow with the wind. The Roman Catholics seek relevancy in today's world. The Orthodox haven't changed anything significant in about 1,000 years. We have it nailed! is really painting with a wide brush and not accurate.

 

Mormons primary authority is the Book of Mormon, not the Bible. For Catholics, & Orthodox & Protestants it's the Bible 1st. Big difference.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[Gold Winger 9]

We do have it nailed and haven't seen the need to change.

 

So? What's so special about the bible? Just because the guys who wrote the new testament didn't know about the golden tablets, does that mean that they don't exist? Can you prove that Christ did not come to the new world?

 

The bible makes many references to "the ends of the earth." Does that mean that the world is flat? Shouldn't the holy scribes have been told that the Earth is round and has no end?

[evmori 11]

The bible makes many references to "the ends of the earth." Does that mean that the world is flat? Shouldn't the holy scribes have been told that the Earth is round and has no end?

 

You have to be kidding me! No point trying to argue with that type of logic since it is so illogical in the 1st place.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[captainron14 11]

ALL,

From a lot of Scouters who I love to get great information and advice, many of you are putting out quite a bit of misinformation and out right falsehoods (I won't be like Merlyn and call you all Liars! ;o))

 

It appears to me that what is being said as fact, is really opinion, or in some cases repeating some Anti-Mormon propaganda. Some of you have made attempts to defend their freedoms, but many have just added fuel to the fire.

Is there anyone who has posted here that has FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of their beliefs? Not some garbage from someone who knew someone, or a book written by an EX-Member who has an ax to grind about the Mormons, or one of those great Anti-Mormon Videos that is circulated by some churches. A real active Mormon?

From what I have seen the answer is no.

 

I have met great people in Scouting from every religion that I can think of. Most, if not all, if asked, would say that their church had the "truth",(or more than others). But most are good people who try to follow the principles of the Scout Oath and Law (not just the first 11 points)and don't make judgements about you because of your religion. Most don't even know what church you belong to.

The Mormon Church has it's problems, but so do all of the other churches. Worry about yours.

Matthew 7:5

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

In my view, this thread is way out of line. Who is next? What church will this list pick a part because we don't agree with their views/beliefs? And don't try to hide behind any of the Citizenship MBs, this goes against the Scout Law (ALL 12 points!). This has nothing to do with Scouting.

I should have known better to read a topic in the "Issues/Politics" section.

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, this topic/thread goes against my "grain".

That's my 2 cents and change.

YiS & V

CR14

 

 

 

[Gold Winger 9]

Actually Ed, it is very logical. You assert that because something is or isn't in the bible it must or must not be. Hence, since the bible refers to the ends of the Earth, they must exist in your universe.

 

I've known Mormons. I had a close friend in college who was a Mormon, probably still is and I spent a fair amount of time with his Mormon friends. His feet weren't hooves and he didn't have horns. He didn't drink or smoke but was pretty much a regular guy. He knew the old and new testaments backwards and forwards and would use them to bolster his points of view during religious discussions. Rarely did he ever mention the Book of Mormon.

 

My brother-in-law lives in Salt Lake City and his wife hate mormons. She claims that mormon men believe that in the afterlife you'll be given a planet with an unlimited supply of virgin and spend eternity de-flowering them. I don't buy that because if that was the case, my friend would have put that on the table as a sure fire way to convert me. :-)

 

 

[eolesen 10]

I live in an area where LDS is fairly significant (around 25% of the local), and I'm amazed at some of the sheer ignorance over the LDS that exists in the discussion so far.

 

Go spend a couple hours watching "The Mormons" at http://PBS.Org/Mormons and then read thru the FAQs.

 

One of them addresses the original question -- are Mormons Christians:

 

 

Then there's the question of are Mormons Christian? It's a paradox; according to Mormons, perhaps the Christians aren't Christian!

 

Part of the problem is insolvable because Mormons are using "Christians" in one sense; everybody else is using it in another. When Mormons say we're Christian, [what] we mean is we believe in Christ. And we do. We believe there is no salvation outside of Christ, that he is the Son of God.

 

But when everybody else uses the term, what they mean is there's this historically defined tradition that gives us definition through a set of formal creeds of Christianity, and you don't participate in that tradition or that belief, and they're right. So we're talking at cross purposes.

 

 

To me, the main distinction is the fact that Mormons do not believe in the Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. Mormons believe in the Godhead, in which the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct entities.

 

There's also some huge differences in the concept of salvation and Heaven. Mormons believe in three Heavens, and only Mormons are entitled to the highest level.

 

Christians believe in salvation by divine grace alone.

 

For Mormons, a man's salvation rests on his own actions and faith, however a woman's salvation relies upon her husband. A Morman woman married to a non-believer will not achieve the highest level of Heaven. A Morman woman who divorces will not achieve the highest level of Heaven unless the man she was "sealed" to for eternity decides to "pull her thru the veil" into the Celestial Kingdom.

 

There are several other issues I take issue with, but I'll leave some space for others to continue to split hairs...

 

For those who really think it is just another twist of the Protestant movement, I suggest you take a look at some of the postings at http://exmormon.org and hear what former members have to say. Unfortunately, participating in discussions that might be critical about Mormonism is pretty much frowned upon by the LDS church.

[evmori 11]

You assert that because something is or isn't in the bible it must or must not be.

 

No I didn't. I said their book of authority was the Book of Mormon not the Bible. You misunderstood what I posted. Now, isn't that nicer than being called a liar?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10