Boy Scouts Charter

[Marty_Doyle 10]

This thread was spun from another thread.Thank you OGE, but I borrowed that joke from somewhere else.

 

The following is from the original Boy Scout Congressional Charter:

 

The BSA NAtional Charter [uS Code, Title 36, Chapter 2]

June 15, 1916

 

23. Purpose of corporation

The purpose of the corporation shall be to promote, through otganization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance and kindred virtues, using the methods which were in common use by the Boy Scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

Ineluctable modality of the visible! It does mention the word "virtue".

 

But there is no mention of "Training Boys To Be Men". Sounds more like what OGE posted - citizenship, character development and physicial fitness.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

I guess it depends on how you define "man." If you consider it to be an adult male human of good character then we are building men or maybe helping to build men.

 

From the evil 1962 Scoutmaster's Handbook, "See to it that each boy . . . has the chance to develop himself into a MAN (emphasis original)"

 

Today, they hid it all behind crap like "Character counts" because "building men" is not PC.

 

[WHEELER 10]

Now we are getting somewhere! Thanks for the congressional record.

 

THANK YOU FOG!!!! We are now uncovering our hidden heritage. Let us continue.

 

Now for the hard part. Is there somebody down at Irving TX that can search the archives for the original charter? They have original paperwork. Is there somebody out there with more old paperwork???

 

Quick before they hire the shredder!

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

So let us assume that the original 1910 charter says what you say it does. So what? What was it about Congress and the BSA in 1910 that makes them so much more qualified to lay out the basics of the Scouting program than we are today? Were they divinely inspired back then? Are we to be stuck with the first draft of everything? Or do you prefer it simply because it better fits your 4th century BC view of the world?

[WHEELER 10]

First, many people accuse me of having an agenda. No. There are people who are within the BSA program that do have an agenda. Just like Antonio Gramsci wanted. To convert the BSA program to serve socialist ideology and sociology. That is why the word changes and no references to any thing classical in the BSA literature, the change in modalities, no pictures of historical pictures of men and the oxymorons appearing. They are all signs of this process. (just like Ayn Rand prophesied in Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead.)

 Second, Righteousness is a V-I-Rtue.

 "To Righteousness it belongs to be ready to distribute according to desert, and to PRESERVE ANCESTRAL CUSTOMS AND INSTITUTIONS and the established laws, and to tell the truth when interest is at stake, and to KEEP AGREEMENTS. First, among the claims of righteousness are our duties to the gods, then our duties to the spirits, then those to country and parents, then those to the departed; and among these claims is piety, which is either a part of righteousness or a concomitant of it. Righteousness is also accompanied by holiness and TRUTH and LOYALTY and hatred of wickedness."

On Virtues and Vices, Aristotle, Loeb Classical Library, pg 495

To preserve is righteousness. Furthermore, Truth never changes.  Moreover, loyalty demands it. 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

no pictures of historical pictures of men

 

Pictures of pictures? Oops I forgot, I don't make fun of typos. As for pictures in the handbooks, if you want to get really upset, Wheeler, take a look at the Wolf and Bear Cub Scout books and see all the cartoon characters. Not exactly Spartan survival rituals or Zulu face-painting. (Actually I have not seen the new round of handbooks that came out last year so I don't know if they still have as many cute pictures of Akela, Baloo and Wally Webelos (or whatever his name is, though maybe I am thinking of Boys' Life there and not the handbook.))

 

The point is, as I have said before, the BSA handbooks and the program itself tries to be a mixture of fun and seriousness, in an attempt to get boys to join and stay. If it turns into "school after school," all you do is send more boys off to the soccer field, the baseball diamond or the ice hockey rink five or six days a week so that they "don't have time" for Scouts.

 

[evmori 11]

"Drizzle drazzle drizzle drone

Time for this one to come home"!

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Ed: Huh?

 

Hey look, I am back up to 2.5 stars again. It's been awhile since I was happy with a score of 50 percent...

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I think this argument is really about nothing.

 

As has been pointed out, you can find various references in Scouting literature over the years to "turning boys into men" or "turning boys into good men." So what? I don't think the phrase as it was used really was really intended to have any different "content" than the aims of character, fitness and citizenship, nor is any of that really different from the terms used in the 1916 charter, "the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance and kindred virtues." It's all the same thing in different terms. We would probably shy away from the term "turning boys into (good) men" today, in favor of "good people." Obviously the idea of "gender roles" has evolved since the 40's and 50's so that the "men" term might lead to the wrong impression today. It has, in fact, led some in this forum to state that there should be no female leaders because women cannot be good role models for boys to become good men. However, if it is accepted that we are trying to turn boys into good people (which I suppose includes being a "good man") then this issue goes away. People of either gender can be role models for being a good person -- meaning, a person who has good character, is a good citizen, is physically and emotionally fit (within whatever limitations have been imposed on them), and who can "do things" for himself and others (which I think encompasses work and education), and other "kindred virtues."

 

I guess what I am saying is that we should beware of putting so much emphasis on particular words and their literal meaning, that we lose their real meaning; and at the same time, that when you take a word and "run with it," you can get far beyond what was ever intended. This is what Wheeler does. He starts with the concept of turning boys into men, which in an of itself is a benign concept that (as I said) really has the same "content" as the "official" BSA words, and dashes off into the world of Spartan survival rituals, Zulu face paint, the Battle of Thermopylae, no joking allowed, no fun allowed, no gurlz allowed, and off into the next galaxy.

 

There is a recent trend in this forum, which did not start with Wheeler but which he has taken to a High Art, of taking dictionary definitions of things (sometimes the third, fourth or fifth meaning listed, and sometimes the dictionary is from 20, 50 or 100 years ago) and elevating them above what was really meant. I think it was Wheeler who repeated a phrase often used by Rush Limbaugh, "Words mean things." Yes, they do. But the "things" are still more important than the words, if the two are in conflict. Unfortunately the "things" can get lost in endless debate over what the words mean.

[evmori 11]

NJ,

I think it's time Mr. Wizard pull Wheeler in!

[WHEELER 10]

What you are witnessing is the "transformation" of ideals thru the changing of words. Words carry meaning. That is why the word "democracy" is very important. When one uses this word, the mind conjures up the concept of "free to do as one pleases". "Republic" on the other hand conjures up the image of "I have to obey laws".

 

I have just demonstrated in the post "On Effeminancy", how this word has been dropped from modern bibles and so has the concept. If one doesn't know the word, then one doesn't know if he is one or not.

 

For NJ Cub Scouter, Does Art imitate life or does Art manipulate life?

 

There is a big difference between "Man" and "Adult". One is gender specific and the other is gender neutral. One is definite specific meaning and the other is amorphous, one could be talking about an Adult Horse, or an Adult dog, or an Adult male (which species) or an adult Maritian. Who knows? Adult can mean anything and mean nothing.

This language is terrible. Do you hand a scout amorphous directions? To make a model airplane, are the directions amorphous?

[Marty_Doyle 10]

O tempora, O mores!

 

Sorry, Wheeler. I do not think that any of us involved in Scouting are unaware of how the program is designed to teach boys how to become self-sufficient, self-confident, self-reliant adults, who are vituous and courageous, as outlined in the Scout Law and Oath. And the "classical" Boy Scout documents, like FOG and myself posted, also hold no surprises.

 

Tempori parendum.....

 

Complaints about PC aside, the program is still the same. If boys stick with it, they absorb all of the benefits. To get them to stick with it, it has to be fun. After all, "Scouting is a game....with a purpose".

 

Methinks your view of Scouting, and much of your posting, is along the lines of "Delenda est Carthago."

 

You can keep repeating it, but this isn't Rome and you aren't Cato. (You are not even Kato - he was humourous).

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Words carry meaning. That is why the word "democracy" is very important. When one uses this word, the mind conjures up the concept of "free to do as one pleases".

 

No. Your mind does. The minds of some others may also. But the minds of most people conjure up something different and more positive, because for most people people, "democracy" implies "representative democracy", with laws, like a republic, but with free, fair and open elections (sometimes indirect as with the President of the US or Prime Minister of the UK), which is true in some "republics" but not in others.

 

"Republic" on the other hand conjures up the image of "I have to obey laws".

 

OK, but be careful what you wish for. Iran, for example, calls itself an "Islamic Republic." They have quite a few interesting laws there. You'd better be the right religion and practice it the "right" way in that "republic," or you've got big problems with the law. No democracy run amok there either; if the "wrong" kind of candidates get too popular with the "rabble" of voters, the real leaders (not the elected ones) just knock them off the ballot. Great system, huh?

 

For NJ Cub Scouter, Does Art imitate life or does Art manipulate life?

 

Uh... um... which Art? Art Carney? Art Linkletter? Art Garfunkle? Art Shamsky? (That last one, for those who were too young or in a monastery or something, was a backup outfielder and pinch-hitter for the 1969 Miracle Mets, and a favorite of 1960's Jewish baseball fans everywhere.)

 

Other than that, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

 

There is a big difference between "Man" and "Adult".

 

Well, one difference is that I didn't use one of those terms. I said "person," not "adult," so all your stuff about horses, dogs and Martians is just your own fantasy world again. You ought to be more careful with words, Mr. Words Have Meanings.

[WHEELER 10]

Isocrates:

 

"Athens has in many respects been plunged into such a state of topsy-turvy and confusion that some of our people no longer use words in their proper meaning but wrest them from the most honourable associations and apply them to the basest pursuits."

 

Isocrates and Socrates were both reactions against the degradations of democracy. Words lost their meaning and people lost their 'loyalty' to the meanings of those words. That is why most of the time, Socrates went around asking for definitions.

 

Human nature does not change and the modus operandi doesn't either. Rome went through this, America is going through this.

 

And still am waiting for the original. OGE presented the 'cleansed progressive' version of the charter. But there is a vastly different original somewhere.

 

I went through this at Berea College. I was complaining about the character of the college and that it was slipping away from its roots. Everybody harangued me terribly. Until one day in an old building I spied an old book behind the work table and low and behold was the original constitution of the College. Very different from the one they were promoting. One of the planks of the old constitution read, "To be against every wrongful institution and practice". What was Berea College doing? promoting homosexuality, abortion, etc. yada yada.... The original said, "To promote the cause of Christ..." but did every thing but that.

 

I wasn't born yesterday you bunch of yahoos. I have already played this game once and it sickens me to see the BSA in it too.

 

Bring up the old charter, OGE, I double dare you.

[Marty_Doyle 10]

Double dare ya? At least we are getting back to the boy in Boy Scouts.

 

The whole charter can be found here:

http://www.usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsacharter.html

 

Not sure why you need it, 'cause the "Purpose of Corporation" section was already posted.