Please stop using the bible against homosexuality

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Achilleez, Pullllleezze,

 

As I have posted elsewhere, the Vision Statement of the Boy Scouts of America reads:

 

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

 

In the future Scouting will continue to:

 

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;

Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;

Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;

Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.

 

Now you balance off that 80 percent of Americans (I saw that number on FOX while they were discussing Mel Gibson's movie) are Christian and you can extrapolate that at least 80 percent of the people here on the forum who are American are christians. Telling people of a faith based organization not to use the tenets of their faith to argue anything is like getting on a french website and telling the members not to speak french. If you come to a boy scout website, you are going to get boy scout values, I don't see that this should change by the request of someone who doesnt share those values,

[Achilleez 10]

I will agree to the beginning of your post. Given the atmosphere, I have since realized that making such a request was not the most logical of things to do. Not that it has proved useless however, for I am now wiser than I was at the beginning of this post, due to replies of others. This is of course a driving reason for the existence of a forum such as this: allow people to express what's on their mind, listen to what others have to say and become a wiser person for it.

 

What I will not agree to is your claim that I do not share the respect of the values the BSA attempts to instill upon its members.

 

"In the future Scouting will continue to:

 

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;

Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;

Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;

Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program"

 

I don't know where or how you have come to the conclusion that I disagree with any of the above statements. True, I am an atheist and thus not welcomed by the BSA, but I still think the world would be better off if more of the world's youth had the opportunity to undergo programs like scouting. This is why I signed up my son, who is not an athiest to my knowledge. Beleive me I would be a member if my beleifs allowed it.

[Laurie 10]

Achilleez, though you and I are very different when it comes to faith, I want you to know that I appreciate your willingness to check out what others believe and to engage in a conversation without taking offense or becoming offensive is to be commended.

[Achilleez 10]

Life is a cereal bowl of knowledge.

 

My spoon is small but my stomach is hungry.

[WHEELER 10]

Achilleez,

 

One of the sayings on the Delphi temple is "Know yourself". It really is part of a longer wisdom saying "Know your human weakness in contrast with the power of the gods".

 

We are humans not gods. But there is a god out there. When men have no god, they become gods. Faith in higher being is really necessary for manhood. Know your limitations. Know that you are created. Not eternal. We are immortal but not eternal. Humility is a V-I-Rtue. With faith in God, comes humility. Man knows his place in life and seeks not to usurp that of God. Know yourself and your place in it and that is righteousness, another V-I-Rtue.

 

Know your human weakness (and that tells you, you can't be a God)

In contrast with the power of the gods (who made all things and you.)

 

You don't have to be a Christian to be in the BSA. Believe in Divine Providence, the Great Spirit. But nature does declare the presence and wisdom of God.

[evmori 11]

Whoa! Was that last post from Wheeler? It almost sounds like his/hers/its own opinion! And it even had some actual facts! Must be a good medication day for Wheeler.

 

Brr. It's getting cold again!

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I have mostly stayed out of this thread, because whatever the Old and New Testaments say, or are interpreted to mean, about homosexuality, and whatever significance people may draw from them about how gay people should be treated today, is irrelevant to the BSA policy. At least, it should be.

 

But I did notice that Rooster mentioned Mel Gibson's new film. For another viewpoint, see:

 

http://www.adl.org/Interfaith/gibson_trigger.asp

 

This explains why the film has been so controversial, and why Mr. Gibson's various statements about what will or might be deleted or added to the film have not resolved the issue. And yes, I do realize that the writer of this article is the person who has been at the forefront of raising objections to the film, and it is not an "objective" news story. However, the news stories that I have seen and heard about this film do not really do a good job of explaining what the controversy is. In recent days, most of what I have heard focuses on the extreme violence in the film (earning an R rating), and I guess that would intensify the concern over the "message" that could be gleaned from the film, but it is not the central issue. This article explains what the issue is.

[Rooster7 11]

From the article noted in NJs post:

 

For almost 2,000 years in Western civilization, four words legitimized, rationalized, and fueled anti-Semitism: "The Jews killed Christ." Some of you know I stand here today thanks to Christian faith, Christian belief, Christian mercy, Christian love. For as a Jewish child born in Europe during the Holocaust, it was only through the intervention of good Christians that some Jews were saved. And I was one of them. The lady that saved me loved me, loved me with a passion, and was faithful and religious with a passion. She baptized me and gave me a saint's name to protect me, and yet, when as a child I misbehaved, she would call me "Judas." And she loved me.

 

At its core, from a Christian point of view, the Christ Killers argument is lunacy. Jews should not fear a reprisal from Christians. Its simply illogical. First, we are all Christ Killers. As I noted in previous posts, because of our sin, Christs sacrifice on the cross was predestined and necessary so that God children could be reconciled to Him. Our atonement, Christians and Jews alike, could not have been obtained any other way. The Gospel makes this point clear. Since Gibson is supposed to be faithful to the Gospel, I have to assume that his movie makes this point clear as well. In fact, he found a role for himself to emphasize his own culpability (and that of every other man). He holds the stakes that are driven into Christs hands.

 

Secondly, anyone who would attack a Jew as a result of this movie has completely missed the message and should not be calling himself a Christian. The childhood story related above by Mr. Foxman is a personal tragedy. But, Mr. Foxman should not be holding it up as a predictive model for Christian behavior. The Christian lady that he describes may in fact have loved him and by appearances, she took great personal risk to hide him from the NAZIs. However, her betrayal to that love (i.e., calling him Judas) prompted by his misbehavior was wrong. True followers of Christ know this. When Foxman pointedly observes, And she loved me, he is implying that the typical Christian that does not love him, will do even worse. His implication is extremely bigoted towards Christians, and equally ignorant of the faith.

 

Later in the speech, Foxman invokes the name of Hitler and his twisted views. I realize playing the victim is a popular game in this country, but I fail to see how a disposed German dictator (and a hater of Jews) which cost this country thousands of young men (most of whom were Christians) has anything to do with his point. Contrary to his flawed argument, American history (i.e., our involvement in WWII) should give him hope and comfort that no such backlash (from a movie about the Gospel) would ever occur. Of course, if he embraced that thought, then his status as a potential victim in this country would decrease, along with his potential political influence. Alas, truth takes the back seat again to political aspirations and/or correctness. Im not surprised. Its the model for liberal leadership. Power and political gain are their ultimate goal, not a country that embraces one another regardless of race, color, or religion. If that were ever recognized as being a reality then they would be out of a job.

 

Mr. Foxman says, And if you walk out of that film in pain and in anguish, where is that anger going to go? To God, or to those portrayed so crudely on the screen in this film for two hours - the Jewish people. I dont know what to believe. Does he truly miss the point? Does he believe Christians, who by definition are supposed to be repentant and thankful for Christs sacrifice, will become bloodthirsty and seek revenge (two transgressions which Christ taught against)? In the garden, didnt Christ tell Peter to put his sword away? And when does anguish translate into anger? If my brother pushes a stranger and me out from the path of a speeding car, is it logical for me to blame the strange for his death? Its good that Foxman has concern for his people as its good for any man to have concern for another. But his pointed finger against Gibson and Christians in general, is not only inappropriate and misguided; its insulting and ignorant.

 

I will concede one point. If Gibson were to attach a trailer at the end of his movie as Foxman described, it would be good. Not because millions or even thousands of Christians would respond with hatred - but because theres always the chance that some small group of perverse, self-described believers will act with malice. Yet, if Gibsons disclaimer is necessary, then I submit that many other movies should be treated accordingly. Did the German people deserve a disclaimer at the end of Schindlers List?

 

No matter what stories are told or not told, or how they are told, there will always be people (from every religion, race, nationality, etc.) that will be intent on doing harm to others. The Gospel was not written to inspire that kind of behavior. To the contrary, it was written so that all men will realize the way (accepting and embracing Christ) to be reconciled to God. This reconciliation is extended to our fellow man as well. When people imply otherwise, they are either demonstrating a total lack of understanding, or something much worse - a deceitful heart thats intent on serving their own purpose.

 

[Big_Dog 10]

Achilleez,

Trying to get you to believe Scripture over the internet is not the best way. I hope you personally know a believer, because their life should be the reason an interest is sparked in you to know more about the Bible. It's very easy to think that Christians look down on others, especially gays, in a forum like this. But know, we all fall short of the life God expects, and it's Jesus who makes up the difference. I've had some REAL trials in the last year, and it's this faith that made the difference! I hope the hunger of which you spoke is filled is the beginning of something great.

 

NJ -

As far as a movie from Hollywood offending someone, as a Christian, I've been pretty offended by what has come out in movies and no one reallys seems to care!

If the Jews that are complaining truly believe that Jesus was not the Christ, then their forefathers didn't do anything wrong. If He was not the Christ, they did us a good thing by putting to death a liar and a blasphemer. I don't accept that He was a "Good Man". He either was the Son of God, or he was extremely bad.

Just my take, but since I didn't have to hijack the thread to say so..

 

This is pretty deep for the Big dog... but it's a beautiful weekend to go camping, and we're going to Merit Badge College. Talk about bad timing...

 

YiS

BD

[Achilleez 10]

(This message has been edited by Achilleez)

[Adrianvs 10]

I found the following take on Gibson's film to be quite telling.

 

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12115

[EagleInKY 14]

Rooster -

 

Beautiful response. I couldn't have penned it better if I tried a thousand times.

 

I'm planning on attending "The Passion" next Friday with my 14 year old daughter and over 100 teenagers from our church. I can't say that I'm "looking forward to it". I actually just hope I can make it through it. I am also hopeful for the outcome that we'll see from those that develop a deeper love for Christ after viewing it.

[Rooster7 11]

Adrianvs,

 

Great article. I love how he concluded it:

 

With the raw sewage being pumped out of the open cesspool that calls itself a creative community songs that celebrate rape and the degradation of women, films that glorify violence and legitimize perversion and sexual anarchy its ironic that some have chosen to attack a film that dramatizes sacrifice and redemption.

 

More power to Mel, say I. Its rare to see a man with such power and influence willing to stand up for his faith in the face of a hostile culture. Instead of opposing him, Jews should be looking for someone like him willing to propagate the wisdom, beauty and truth of Judaism.

 

Don Feders words make me realize that I have more in common with Jews, who hold Gods Words close to their hearts, then liberal Christians that want to deny the power and righteousness of God. I envision a day when millions of Jews and Christians will embrace, in joy and love, as they realize that they have sought and found the face of the same Loving and Holy God. Obviously, today, my Jewish brothers and I do not agree. But the Bible makes it clear that one day, Gods chosen children the Jews, will find His favor again. I pray that God will let me witness that day as one of His children. Not surprisingly, the controversy concerning Gibsons movie doesnt appear to be so much between Jews and Christians. More predictably, its between people who love and believe in Gods Word whether it be the Torah or the New Testament, and those who want to deny the truth and power of His Word.