Sturgen 10 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 This thread was spun from another thread.I resent the implication that I carry an mp3 player or any other similar device on a camping trip. I never have nor do any of the boys, in my troop. Also the general belief that wisdom only comes with age is ridiculous. Age is only a factor. Being as you seem to hold BSA Policy as gospel I would submit that in the eyes of the BSA I a technically fall into that hole somewhere between a youth (kid) and an adult, as a 20 yr old who earned his Eagle Rank, I am permitted to be the second adult on a BSA outing. I submit that in the eyes of the BSA, I, and others like me, are sub-adults. I do not claim to know any of the individuals on this forum, however I doubt many of you at the age of 17 have been in charge of an outpost camp, with 20 boys in your care, with at least two cougars stalking in the darkness. In this situation, I was forced to take charge because the 30 yr old volunteer staffer, and the three adult leaders (late 40s) of the boys were too frightened to think clearly. Last year I held the lives of at least one hundred individuals as the assistant on a COPE course, without one injury. I have dealt with bomb threats, lost boys, YPIs, you name it. I am not stating any of this to brag, just to inform. I have met many other individuals who have experienced far more than they are credited for due to their age. Just because we are young doesnt always mean we arent wise. Have some faith in your youth, your children; one of the biggest problems in the BSA is that it fails to put enough responsibility on the youth. Adults lead far too much. If todays young men are not given the chance to lead, the chance to learn, the chance to experience, our future as well as yours is bleak at best. I do not claim to be a sage, or even remarkably wise. I am simply a young MAN, concerned about his peers, and a program he has given more than a continuous two thirds of his life to. Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 You raise some good points Sturgen, but your posts do not reflect the wisdom you speak of. "Have some faith in your youth, your children; one of the biggest problems in the BSA is that it fails to put enough responsibility on the youth. Adults lead far too much." That is not a problem in the BSA, that is a problem in some individual units who do not follow the BSA program. The BSA program is found in the training , resources, methods, policies and procedures of the various scouting divisions. Sources that you do not seem to hold much respect for. "I am simply a young MAN, concerned about his peers" Your peers, if you you believe what you have written, are other leaders in the BSA program not the youth members. In Boy Scouting a 20 year old is called an Assistant Scoutmaster, not a kid, or a betweener. "Being as you seem to hold BSA Policy as gospel" As an assistant scoutmaster I would expect you you take the BSA policies exactly as they are presented, as the rules of the program. As an Assistant scoutmaster you are legally responsible for follow and upholding those policies. If you are not ready to take the rules of your community seriously, and without contempt, then you are not ready to lead no matter what your age. Do not confuse experience or knowledge with wisdom. (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to post Share on other sites
scoutingagain 20 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Sturgen, Your ongoing commitment to scouting is to be commended. And I agree with you that there are many young people with knowledge, skill and leadership capabilities. I've been very impressed with some of the postings in this forum of some of it's younger members. Outdoor Thinker and Hops come to mind. There are a couple of others as well. But I challenge you to keep your initial post in this thread for 10 or 20 years. Re-read it and see if you don't believe you have more "wisdom" then than you do now. The funny thing about the wisdom that comes with age, is you don't appeciate it until you've experienced some of it yourself. A piece of wisdom you may not appreciate for another 10 or 20 years. I'll admit I didn't appreciate as much when I was younger either. SA Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Without getting into some of the specifics discussed in this thread, I'd have to agree that wisdom (or common sense) does not necessarily go hand in hand with age (or experience.) Mp3 players were mentioned, and in my troop there seems to be an unwritten understanding that electronic entertainment devices are not brought on camping trips. There is no formal rule, but I have been on enough camping trips with this troop, without seeing any of these devices, to conclude that it is not a coincidence. However, the last trip was a joint cabin-camping trip with another troop, and that troop seems to have a completely different understanding, starting with the SM (and here is where this ties into the thread.) This SM (a former ASM of my son's troop who left on good terms to revive the other troop in the same town) is in his 50s and brought along a portable DVD player, and spent a considerable amount of time in his bunk watching movies. It will be no surprise that the boys in his troop had more than one portable CD player among them and spent the evenings (and parts of the days since the weather precluded doing a lot outside) listening to them. When we did decide to venture outside a couple of times for some short hikes, most of the boys from this troop (and our boys) were out there with OUR leaders, while this guy was still warming himself beside the stove in the cabin. Our SM also stayed behind but he was doing some emergency repairs in the cabin. The other thing this other SM did that I had a problem with was smoke. Evidently he is one of those who reads the "rule" to allow smoking as long as you don't do it in front of the boys. However, I don't think he was successful in completely hiding it. I did not really feel like I was in a position to say anything, but I did tell our SM that I don't think we should be doing any more joint camping trips with this other troop until their SM learns to set a better example. What he does in his own troop is between him and the parents/committee/CO of that troop, but we don't need him showing our boys that camping trips are for spending hours in a bunk watching movies -- or smoking. So no, age and wisdom don't always go together. Link to post Share on other sites
acco40 95 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Wisdom does not come with age. When I was a high school senior I knew practically everything. My parents and many other adults were clueless. As I grew older and became a college grad and started my first job, I knew more than most at my workplace but I understood that I didn't know everything. After a few years on the job and after obtaining my graduate degree I realized I knew even less. Now as a middle aged man with three kids, one a teenager, another fast approaching and a daughter who constantly teaches me new things I realize I know less now than I ever did. So my life is proof that wisdom descreases with age! My son came home with a new word after JLT training last summer. He kept refering to some of his leaders as "quasis." I wasn't sure what he meant but at our council, the youth refer to the 18 - 21 year old staff as quasis. Not quite youth, but not quite adult. I like the term! Sturgen and BW do have a valid points. The BSA does give youth a chance to lead but I've seen SMs and SAs fight giving up "too much" leadership. Link to post Share on other sites
VentureScoutNY 10 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Sturgen I applaud your efforts and what you have obviously done for your peers and your youth. I am also at the point on "In Between" you could say. I am 19, a youth Venturer and an ASM. In my troop as an ASM I am listened to and treated equally as the rest of the older ASM's. I do agree with many of the replies here that with age comes knowledge, but not always. It really depends on the people. Sure when I was a youth some people doubted my abilities but I proved some wrong and some right. However much we (younger adults) think we know may be an illusion. Like Acco said, his daughter enlightens him with new words he has never heard of. Although we think we may know more , which maybe we do in some aspects, we have to still be living by the scout law and have respect for our elders. It's a Given some of them know nothing, but some know much more than we could imagine. My original Scoutmaster, who I admire as a leader, and man, and a friend, was a Marine in Vietnam. He enlisted right after earning eagle, and was not rich, was not an officer, was a just a fox hole soldier. He has been through more than I could ever imagine. Although in Scouting he made some wrong decisions, that I could see as a Scout, I wasn't going to tell him. We cannot act as if we are know it alls. All we can do is put our 2 cents in and hope the respecting party will be just as open to opinions as we are. We all need to work together for the same purpose. It is a two way street I suppose. Like my mother has told me for years do on to other as they do onto you. Be a leader when you have to,stand up when no one else stands up, and if you need to take someones hand along the way,take it. Hopefully I made some sense in this post and wasn't repetitive...I just ate dorm food and..well....I'd take camp food 10x over dorm food! Yours in Scouting VentureScoutNY Link to post Share on other sites
WHEELER 10 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 To Mr. White: "Do not confuse experience or knowledge with wisdom." Is this the truth? Socrates in the Republic: "Then knowledge and opinion having distinct powers have also distinct spheres or subject matters? reply: That is certain Socrates: Being is the sphere or subject-matter of knowledge and knowledge is to know the nature of being? reply: Yes Socrates: And opinion is to have an opinion? reply: Yes Socrates: And do we know what we opine? or is the subject-matter of opinion the same as the subject-matter of knowledge? reply: Nay, that has been already disproven; if difference in faculty implies difference in the sphere or subject-matter, and if, as we were saying, opinion and knowledge are DISTINCT FACULTIES, then the sphere of knowledge and of opinion cannot be the same. paraphrased it reads "Opinion differs from knowledge because the ONE ERRS and THE OTHER IS UNERRING." Plato's Republic, Jowett translation, Vintage Books, sec 477-478, or pages 209-210. Aristotle's Virtues and Vices, Loeb Classical edition Vol 285, pg 493 "...SAGACITY, TO HAVE EXPERT KNOWLEDGE OF ALL THINGS THAT ARE USEFULL. MEMORY, AND EXPERIENCE AND ACUTENESS ARE EACH OF THEM EITHER A CONSEQUENCE OR A CONCOMITANT OF WISDOM; OR SOME OF THEM AS IT WERE SUBSIDARY CAUSES OF WISDOM, AS FOR INSTANCE EXPERIENCE AND MEMORY..... Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Good grief. Wheeler, can't you say things in your own words instead of giving us strings of 2,000++ year old quotes? Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Kudos and a high five NJ for answering a veritable plethora of quotes from 2, 000 plus year old philosophers with a single phrase from undoubtedly one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century, good 'ol Charlie Brown Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Sturgen, Sturgen, Sturgen,...Sturgen.... lets take a look at the post that has riled your youthful hide. Unless I miss my guess the whole reason for this thread is the phrase: "Even less than that mp3 player that you want to drag along." Now, you made the rookie mistake of thinking that this meant the poster was saying you carry a mp3 player, when actually all it does is say you "want" to drag it along. Doing and wanting to do are two different things, I "want" to do alot, self control and discipline keeps me only doing what is "right" and correct (most of the tine, I have lapses) Then the poster continues by saying: "If you were an adult you'd understand the need to enforce written safety rules" Now, here you make the mistake of thinking Adult = Age and nothing can be farther from the truth. I have met some quite accomplished adults aged 16 and some out right children aged 50. But with youthful enthusiasm and pre-judged concepts you jumped to the conclusion that the poster was equating age with wisdom. If you glean the post, I don't believe you will find the word "wisdom" mentioned at any time. So, you thought you were accused of carrying a mp3 player, when all was alleged was your desire to carry one, you say you don't equate wisdom with age, when the word wisdom was never mentioned until you brought it up, and then you commit the ultimate youth crime, you care about what people think of you when a true grown-up, an accomplished adult can face a criticism, evaluate its merits and then move on without having to defend oneself especially when the detractor is a well known and accomplished button pushing, chain pulling , crank yanker Right now you are locked in an argument that boiled to its essence goes like this: Poster: You are a child Sturgen: AM NOT ! ( all thats missing is a tongue stuck out) Link to post Share on other sites
WHEELER 10 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Palios Xristos! Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 προσέξτε το στοματικό πολυάσχολό σας άλλο εγώ θα πρέπει να πλύνει το στόμα σας με το σαπούνι Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 He's got you with that one. Good thing you're in a library DS Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Ditto NJ Ditto! Hi Dave! Nice to see you back! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to post Share on other sites
Marty_Doyle 10 Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Wheeler's posts are generally obtuse and obscure, but "old christ" (Palios Xristos!)? A new standard. Of what, I'm not sure.... Link to post Share on other sites
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