It's not as popular as some think

[Bob White 20]

This thread was spun from another thread.In response to NJ

There is consensus among the executive board members of the BSA and the chartering organizations they represent. The fact is that non-sectarian refers to the acceptance of different religious worships. Homosexuality while accepted as some as a "lifestyle" has never to my knowledge been accepted as a religion.

 

BSA is non-sectarian. Anyone of any religious belief may join.

 

HHMMM, NJ says that that there is a general consensus that homosexuality is moral. Evidently that word hasn't reached everyone in Boston yet, or in the Midwest, and when I lived in the Mid-Atlantic states it wasn't a consenus there either.

 

Being in scouting or any other private organization is not an individual right. It is a choice of the private organization.

 

I cannot be a leader in the Jewish faith if I don't agree to practice the beliefs of the Jewish faith. Do I try to get Judaism to believe what I belive? Or, do I join a church that shares my beliefs?

 

No one HAS to belong to scouting. If you share scoutings values then you GET to be a member.

 

It's not like there is a mass of homosexuals who fell that they HAVE to be scout leaders. It's that there is a political agenda among social activists who are using the image of scouting to validate their lifestyle choices.

 

They have no concern about the ideals or goals of the program, only to see their cause "socially cleansed" through the acceptance of the BSA.

rank this post

 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I'm going to take Bob's post somewhat out of order, because I want to deal with the blatant falsehood (as opposed to just differences of opinion) first:

 

HHMMM, NJ says that that there is a general consensus that homosexuality is moral.

 

I'd like you to show me where I said that. Don't bother looking, because I didn't say it, nor would I say it, because it is not true. A consensus is not simply a majority, it is unanimity or near-unanimity. Therefore, the lack of a consensus in one direction does not necessarily imply a consensus in the other direction. The fact is that on this issue, where a consensus did once exist in one direction, there is no longer any consensus either way.

 

There is consensus among the executive board members of the BSA and the chartering organizations they represent.

 

I know there was a majority, but I don't know if there was a consensus. There certainly is no consensus within the BSA or its CO's, otherwise nine councils would not have tried to get the BSA to change its policy. And the nine councils are not alone, there are a lot of people in other councils who would like to change it as well. I don't have any numbers, because the only surveys I have seen have used questions so slanted that they are useless, and have not presented "local option" as a, well, option.

 

The fact is that non-sectarian refers to the acceptance of different religious worships. Homosexuality while accepted as some as a "lifestyle" has never to my knowledge been accepted as a religion.

 

Non-sectarian also refers to the acceptance of different religious beliefs, not just "worships." As I (preceded by SA) said on the other thread, the religious belief in question here is the belief that homosexuality is immoral. The BSA leadership has adopted that religious belief and therefore rejects the opposing religious belief held by some of its members. I followed the whole argument through on the other thread, you can respond to it there if you want.

 

BSA is non-sectarian. Anyone of any religious belief may join.

 

Join, but not have their beliefs treated with any respect, if their beliefs include that God doesn't want us excluding gays. Look at what the BSA did to the UUA. I know you think that was a good idea, Bob, I think it was disgraceful.

 

Being in scouting or any other private organization is not an individual right. It is a choice of the private organization.

 

Don't you ever get tired of saying things like that? It is no more relevant this time than it has been any other time. The question is not what the BSA has the right to do from the perspective of those outside the organization, the question is what is right for the BSA to do, from the perspective of those of us inside it.

 

I cannot be a leader in the Jewish faith if I don't agree to practice the beliefs of the Jewish faith. Do I try to get Judaism to believe what I belive? Or, do I join a church that shares my beliefs?

 

I thought the BSA wasn't a religion.

 

No one HAS to belong to scouting. If you share scoutings values then you GET to be a member.

 

That assumes that the people currently making the rules are correct as to what "Scouting's values" are, and in this one case, I don't think that's true.

 

It's not like there is a mass of homosexuals who fell that they HAVE to be scout leaders.

 

Do you really think that helps your argument? Just the opposite. While I agree with your implication that the number of openly gay people who want to be BSA leaders is small, it makes me wonder what the big deal really is. To my knowledge there have been very few openly gay people who have tried to be Scout leaders, and I doubt the number would be much (if at all) higher if the BSA had never had a policy excluding them. There are many other factors that would exclude someone from even wanting to be a BSA leader, or that would exclude someone from being selected, regardless of their orientation. Someone who is gay has to have "good character" in order to be a suitable leader, just like someone who is straight; but right now, being openly gay is itself viewed as proof of a lack of "good character."

 

It's that there is a political agenda among social activists who are using the image of scouting to validate their lifestyle choices.

 

That may be what you see. I see a political/religious agenda among religious/social/political activists to force their anti-gay agenda on others. In this case, the "others" are those within the BSA who don't share the anti-gay agenda.

 

Do you really, truly think that James Dale was just trying to use the image of Scouting to validate his "lifestyle choice" (as you call it)? He was already an assistant scoutmaster in the troop in which he had made Eagle, he didn't tell anybody in the troop he was gay, but he did tell others in other "parts" of his life. When the college-part of his life leaked into the hometown-part, it was not he who made a big deal out of it, it was the BSA local council that did so by sending him a termination letter. Now, others (like DS) have pointed out that he became an "activist" on the gays-in-Scouting issue after that point, and he obviously did so, by suing the BSA among other things. But before he was thrown out, the only "activism" he displayed toward the BSA was in helping his troop as a leader.

 

[evmori 11]

I cannot be a leader in the Jewish faith if I don't agree to practice the beliefs of the Jewish faith.

Not true at all. I was a Cubmaster and the CO was a Catholic church & I'm not Catholic. I am currently an ASM with a Troop chartered by a Methodist church & I'm not a Methodist.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

I would be happy to respond

 

Bob White- HHMMM, NJ says that that there is a general consensus that homosexuality is moral.

 

NJ- "I'd like you to show me where I said that. Don't bother looking, because I didn't say it, nor would I say it,

 

But you wrote "But I believe that in our current society, where there is no longer any consensus that homosexuality is immoral,"

If the consensus as you believe no longer feels it is immoral then they feel it is.......You can't be right both ways NJ.

 

NJ- "I know there was a majority, but I don't know if there was a consensus.

 

The BSA-

 

NJ- " Non-sectarian also refers to the acceptance of different religious beliefs,"

 

Bob White responds- and hike can mean to pass a football between your legs, but not in the context of scouting. Taking a social stand that accepts homosexuality is not the same as a religious belief.

 

NJ- "Being in scouting or any other private organization is not an individual right. It is a choice of the private organization.

 

Don't you ever get tired of saying things like that?"

 

BW responds- Tire of reminding you of the truth. Never, in fact I find it quite cathartic.

 

NJ- "I cannot be a leader in the Jewish faith if I don't agree to practice the beliefs of the Jewish faith. Do I try to get Judaism to believe what I believe? Or, do I join a church that shares my beliefs?

 

I thought the BSA wasn't a religion.'

 

BW- nice try counselor but you and every one who read that understood that the comparison was between two private organizations having the right and ability to determine its own membership.

 

NJ- "Look at what the BSA did to the UUA. I know you think that was a good idea, Bob, I think it was disgraceful."

 

BW- What was disgraceful, well at least distasteful was the UUA's attempt to dismiss the membership regulations of the BSA that they had signed a contract to follow. Members of the UUA are to this day welcomed as members of the BSA as long as they meet the same membership requirements of every other BSA member. They are welcome to attend their church and practice their religion.

 

What has changed is the UUA is not allowed to charter a scout unit because they violated their charter agreement, and until they agree to the same regulations that every Charter Organization agrees to their status with the BSA will remain unchanged.

 

NJ- "I thought the BSA wasn't a religion. "

 

BW- it isn't a religion, it is religious. Which brings us to...

 

NJ " the belief that homosexuality is immoral has no other foundation than a religious one."

 

BW- see previous statement.

 

NJ " No one HAS to belong to scouting. If you share scoutings values then you GET to be a member.

 

That assumes that the people currently making the rules are correct as to what "Scouting's values" are, and in this one case, I don't think that's true."

 

BW- No, that assumes nothing. Regardless of what the values are, or aren't, the fact is that the BSA is a private organization and unless you meet the membership requirements, no matter what they might be, you do not GET to be a member.

 

NJ- "That may be what you see. I see a political/religious agenda among religious/social/political activists to force their anti-gay agenda on others."

 

The BSA says-

 

NJ- "Do you really, truly think that James Dale was just trying to use the image of Scouting to validate his "lifestyle choice" (as you call it)?"

 

BW- No, I think he violated the membership standards of the BSA. I believe now he does not seek to provide a quality scouting program for youth, he seeks retribution. I feel bad for him.

 

The rights of the BSA are as validate as any rights and protections granted to any other private citizen or organization in the United States of America.

 

The "wants" of avowed homosexuals and atheists do not outweigh the "rights" of the BSA.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[tjhammer 10]

 

It's not like there is a mass of homosexuals who fell that they HAVE to be scout leaders. It's that there is a political agenda among social activists who are using the image of scouting to validate their lifestyle choices. They have no concern about the ideals or goals of the program, only to see their cause "socially cleansed" through the acceptance of the BSA.

Certainly doesn't apply to me, or ANY other member of the BSA I have ever met, gay or straight.  BobWhite, there is no denying that activist have rallied to tear the BSA in both directions on this issue. But what you refuse to acknowledge is that within the BSA there are many gay boys and leaders, like myself, who are not a part of the "vast conspiracy" you see.

[Bob White 20]

What I know is that there are currently members, like yourself, who although they are homosexual are not being sought out, hunted down or exposed by the BSA or its members in accordance with the rules and values of the BSA.

 

I know that if you were to avow that you believed in, supported, or practiced, behavior that the BSA determined did not advance our goals, methods or values, they would require you to leave. So you have chosen to hide your beliefs and belong to an organization whose values and rules you do not agree with. I personally could not do that and have little respect for those who do.

 

Anyone who disagrees with the policies of the BSA is free to stand outside the membership and disagree. That is a core freedom of the USA. That does not mean they have the right to be members, only the right to disagree freely. I respect people who know what they stand for and stand for it.

 

But you hide in a program where you disagree with their values and whisper your disagreement in anonymity.

 

I see no honor in that.

 

 

[tjhammer 10]

 

But you hide in a program where you disagree with their values and whisper your disagreement in anonymity.

Regrettably, I don't see much honor in that either... on that, we agree and I've previously acknowledged.

And it's not the "organizations values" I disagree with... it's one policy that I see as inconsistent with Scouting's real values and that is also inconsistent with the organization's stated declarations. And since my own sexuality is completely irrelevant to my lifelong role in Scouting, my overwhelming passion for the movement, and the good that I do for the organization and boys we serve, I've reconciled my relative dishonor.

And of course, I see even less honor in the BSA policy itself, the wild and uneven interpretation and enforcement of the policy, and the disheartening and real consequence of the policy on the lives of boys in our midst.

(This message has been edited by tjhammer)(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[Fat Old Guy 11]

NJ Dude said, "There certainly is no consensus within the BSA or its CO's, otherwise nine councils would not have tried to get the BSA to change its policy."

 

Depends on what you think that a concensus it. If only 9 councils in all of BSA have disagreed then we still have a "general agreement."

 

tjhammer said, "you refuse to acknowledge is that within the BSA there are many gay boys and leaders, like myself, who are not a part of the "vast conspiracy" you see."

 

Shame on you for flying false colors. Shame, shame, shame.

 

That said, I'm pretty sure that I've met some homosexual scouts but I can't recall meeting a single "avowed" homosexual adult in Scouting. Lemme think . . . nope, not a one. Might be the area that I live in.

 

 

[evmori 11]

NJ- "I cannot be a leader in the Jewish faith if I don't agree to practice the beliefs of the Jewish faith. Do I try to get Judaism to believe what I believe? Or, do I join a church that shares my beliefs? I thought the BSA wasn't a religion.' BW- nice try counselor but you and every one who read that understood that the comparison was between two private organizations having the right and ability to determine its own membership. But one doesn't have to be Jewish to be a BSA leader in a unit charted by a synagogue unless it is required by the CO!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

Two links that were part of a post in this thread did not appear once posted. They are

 

NJ- "I know there was a majority, but I don't know if there was a consensus.

 

The BSA says-

http://www.scouting.org/media/press/020206/index.html

 

and

 

NJ- "That may be what you see. I see a political/religious agenda among religious/social/political activists to force their anti-gay agenda on others."

 

The BSA says-

 

http://www.scouting.org/media/positions/diversity.html

 

Please take the time to read these.

Bob White

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Bob, I have read each of those before, several times. I understand what the BSA's lawyers and public relations people wrote to spin this issue.

 

But what I find really interesting is that you think you can prove that what the BSA did is right by referring to the BSA's own statements. That is laughable. You really do think of the BSA as a religion, don't you?

[pdunbar 10]

BobWhite

 

The most effective way to bring about change is from within. I am not gay, but give me a break!! This concept of gays in scouting was never mentioned by Powell!! It originated from within various CO's that felt a need to use scouting as a method to fight homosexuality. What a great way to use young men!!

[Bob White 20]

Total horse hockey pdunbar. I defy you to produce one iota of evidence that the what you present is supported in any way by the BSA.

 

 

[FScouter 24]

Chartered organizations use Scouting as a method to attack homosexuality??? Which CO would that be?

[pdunbar 10]

BobWHite

 

SInce you obviously jave more knowledge about scouting than I do,(which I freely admit that you do), why can't you tell me about Powell and gay scouts