Liberal Condescension

[KoreaScouter 13]

Hmmm, Curtis F. Jones. Is that the same Curtis F. Jones who is anti-Israel to the point of asserting that the territory of Palestine includes Israel as it currently exists, plus the West Bank and Gaza? Check the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs web site or just "google" his name. Hardly an objective source, especially as it applies to our staunchest ally in the Middle East.

 

Congress appropriates funds, not the President.

 

Exactly which of your civil liberties has been stripped away?

 

This discourse is getting almost to the "sandwich-board-on-the-street-corner" level.

 

KS

[FScouter 24]

One millons dollars toward hydrogen energy research is a slap in the face. It takes the goverment only seconds to spend one millon dollars. 50 BILLION dollars might demonstrate a committment to research.

 

Hydrogen is not a free energy source anyway. It takes huge amounts of electricty to produce hydrogen. And where does electricity come from? Oil, maybe?

[SR540Beaver 116]

RobK,

 

Just curious if you read your own link. If so, how did you draw the conclusion that Fascism is liberal. Mussolini himself spoke out against liberalism in the article. I read nothing in the definition of Fascism to remotely suggest the left would support its ideals. I did see a number of things that resemble the current neocon movement however.

[le Voyageur 72]

KS...per your question concerning the loss of civil liberties in America.

 

America's perpetual war, and the birth of American facism begins on 20 September 200l with George W. Bush declaring...

 

"Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there, It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped, and defeated."

 

and

 

"How will we fight and win this war? We will direct every resource at our command, every means of diplomancy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapof of war, to the disruption and to the defeatr of the global terror network."

 

However, before I list the constitutional incursions of the Patriot Act, and in all fairness, the door of facism was squeeked opened by the Clinton Administration's 1996 Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act...here's a short list of the constitutional incursions of this law...

- allowing the government to deport immigrants based on undisclosed evidence.

- making it a crime to support even the lawful activities of an organization labeled as a terrorist group by the State Department.

- authorizing the FBI to investigate the crime of material support for terrorism based solely on activities protected under the First Amendment.

- freezing assets of any US citizen or domestic organization believed to be an agent of a terrorist group, without specifying how an "agent" was identified.

- expanding the powers of the secret court that administers the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, where federal judges sit in secret to consider, and mostly rubber stamp justice.

- repealing the law that barred the FBI from opening investigations based solely on activities protected under the First Amendment, such as the anti-CISPES invesigations; and allowing such surveillance to go forward if the individuals were believed to be associated with any person or organization labeled as "terrorist".

 

As to the constitutional incursions of the Patriot act...

 

- it is a crime for anyone in this country to contribute money or other material support to the activities of a group on the State Department's terrorist watch list. Organizations are so designated on the basis of secret evidence, and their inclusion on the list cannot be challenged in court. Members of any such targeted organization can be deported even if they have not been involved in any illegal activities(the government freely admits that some of the groups it will designate are broadbased organizations engaged in lawful social, political, and humanitarian activities...)

- the FBI can monitor and tape conversations and meetings between an attorney and a client who is in federal custody, wheteher the client has been convicted, charged, or merely detained as a material witness (re: the Lynn Harris case, a court appointed representative of Sheik Abdel Rahman indicted for aiding and abetting terrorism based on conversations with her client. This being a governmental warning shot across the bow to intimidate attorneys defending those accused of terrorism).

- Americans captured on foreign soil and thought to have been involved in terrorist activities abroad may be held indefinitely in a military prison and denied access to lawyers or family members. No federal court can review the reason for the detention.

- the FBI can order librarians to turn over information about heir patrons' reading habits and Internet use. The librarian cannot inform the patron that this information has been provided.

- foreign citizens charged with a terrorist related act may be denied access to an attorney and their right to question witnesses and otherwise prepare for a defense may be severely curtailed if the Department of Justice says that's necessary to protect national security.

- the TSA (Transportation Security Administration) can conduct full searches of people boarding airplanes and, if the passenger is a child, the child may be separated from the parent during the search. An objection by a parent or guardian to the search will put the objector at the risk of being charged with the crime of obstructing a federal law enforcement officer and tried in federal court.

- Americans citizens and aliens can be held indefinitely in federal custody as "material witnesses".

- the FBI can conduct aerial surveillance of individuals and homes without a warrant, and can install video cameras in places where lawful demonstrations and protests are held.

 

and the list goes on and on....I say again, tryanny is at the gate...

 

[Achilleez 10]

Amen, Le Voyageur

 

I think it's funny that Brazil has begun fingerprinting Americans traveling into its country

[KoreaScouter 13]

Calm down, conspiracy theorists, before your paranoia completely takes over.

 

The Patriot Act (approved by a bi-partisan Congress), at its essence, simply adds terrorism language to existing US laws to allow their use to counter terrorism. It also adds language that updates legal procedures to keep pace with changing technologies that terrorists use to their advantage, such as cell and satellite phone technology. Many exisiting court order and wiretap procedures render investigative efforts useless when terrorists and their supporters use "throwaway" cell phones on nationwide networks, for example.

 

Other provisions enable us to detect money laundering, bank secrecy, and currency crimes perpetrated by terrorist organizations that cannot use legitimate finance systems. There are provisions for enhanced border protection, and other public-interest initiatives such as limiting hazardous material licenses.

 

BTW, the Patriot Act specifically says (Sec 501) that an investigation shall not be conducted of a U.S. person solely upon the basis of an act protected by the First Amendment...contrary to what LV claims. Attorney General Ashcroft has been on the stump for two years, going on talk shows, to college campuses, anywhere he can get a podium, so he can dispel these myths. Even college students, who aren't known for conservative Republican tendencies, leave wondering what all the fuss was about.

 

Here's a suggestion: Read the actual Patriot Act (PL 107-56, Oct 26, 2001) for yourself, not opinions or reviews on it. Decide for yourself if you think it's "sinister". Think critically about what you read and hear, and take the time to inform yourselves. For example, how can anyone not read in and given access to a secret court's proceedings know or assert that the court's actions constitute "rubber stamping"? Remember that the public laws that the Patriot Act are derived from have been in place, in some cases for decades, and have been very effective AND repeatedly found constitutional. If you want to be concerned about something tangible and not a red herring, look at our apparent rollover on illegal immigrants and low overall marks in border control enforcement -- if you don't have borders, you don't have a country. I'll be very disappointed if this comes to pass simply to court the Hispanic vote this year.

 

This is largely attributable to "Bush-bashing". It wouldn't matter what the law is or what his policy is, it will be disliked among some simply because it's associated with him. How ironic that we complain about erosion of civil liberties in a country where we have more of them than any other place on earth. I've lived and worked in places around the world where individual civil liberties are severely restricted to near-nonexistent -- there's no comparison.

 

KS

 

[Achilleez 10]

Ever been to Canada?

[frankj 10]

Adrianvs has one of the more intelligent posts on this thread. I second his emotion. You people need to read the book he cited, Vision of the Anointed, by Sowell, to appreciate the concept of condescension on the part of liberals.

[le Voyageur 72]

Sorry KS,

 

But in all respect, no sell, I prefer to stay paranoid against all forms and manners of governments since it is in their best interest to lie and conceal....For the now, I can hear the glass breaking...

[Bob White 20]

I for one am against Liberal condensation. Their always running around dripping all over the place. Leaving little sweaty puddles everywhere they go. You would think they would have the decency to at last carry a towel with them. Wipe the floor up now and then for goodness sakes before somebody slips in all that water and hurts themselves. Hire an illegal immigrant to follow you around with a mop until a reporter catches you and then claim that she doesn't work for she's just a friend, but please stop all this conden...what's that? I'm sorry speak up...c o n d e s c e n t i o n. Condescention, not condensation? Oh...Never mind.

 

Emily Litella

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"But in all respect, no sell, I prefer to stay paranoid against all forms and manners of governments since it is in their best interest to lie and conceal...."

 

I'm wid chu man!

 

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

What the....!? Did BW just lighten up a little?

[SR540Beaver 116]

KS,

 

While I certainly understand the sentiment behind the Patriot Act, any erosion of our civil liberties is too much erosion. Give the government an inch and they will take a mile eventually. There will be abuses. And it will all be done in the name of national security. Here is an example of our civil liberties slipping away.

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-csecret08jan08,0,7173642.story

 

Miami federal court has 'secret docket' to keep some cases hidden from public

 

I would have posted the whole article, but it is fairly lengthy.

[KoreaScouter 13]

At it's essence, any law that restricts your freedom to do anything, including "Don't Walk" signs and HOV lanes, is an erosion of your civil liberties. The debate should be, in my opinion, over where the line between private rights and the public good should lie. Reasonable people can disagree, and that's what makes a horse race.

 

I'm paranoid at work because it's in my job description. But, I make a concerted effort to leave it there when I go home. I guess my perspective is different, but I'm a product of my experiences, as you are of yours.

 

If the "Have you ever been to Canada" question was directed at me, why, yes I have. I grew up in Minnesota, lived in Michigan, was stationed in Montana. I've traveled fairly extensively in Ontario and Alberta. Moreover, one of my closest friends in the military is a Canadian Forces officer who pulled an exchange tour in Virginia when I was there.

 

KS

[NJCubScouter 1389]

SRBeaver, I was wondering the same thing about Bob. I have never seen him be funny before.