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major pack issues with leadership, need to remove AC-help!

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From what you have posted on how this was handled by all involved, and the outcome. It seems more people had a problem with you, than you had with "him". It's too bad it had to go down the way it did. I have said it before, and I will say it again. The biggest problem with kids' activities/sports is adults.

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Thanks everyone. I know that not all volunteers are bad. I love volunteers! I'm in other groups and am amazed by how dedicated some can be. It's just upseting when there are volunteers who can ruin the experience for others involved. (Kind of like PTA :)


Scouting volunteers are dedicated and lovely people for the most part. I'm amazed by how some people still stay in even after their own scout is long gone, in college, etc. I've seen people in for 50 years! It's wonderful. I know people are very giving and great. However, people like the ones I've been dealing with just leave a bad taste in your mouth, you know?


I sincerely do hope that the next pack will be organized well and like to have fun. I always loved doing service projects and the special outings. I hope they will like that too. We only have a few months left and then we're off to BS. Not sure what that will hold for us, but I think that will be more of a dad/son thing, mom will steer clear of things unless food is needed or something. I'm not even sure what BS requires yet! I love to help, so I just need to find a happy medium.


In the meantime, I plan on letting this pack we're leaving do their thing, sink or swim, on its own. We still have a ton of their things in our garage that someone needs to come and get. We've told them that, but they haven't contacted us about it. Any suggestions on what to do with it all? Considering what we've been through, the "bad" side of me wants to put it out on the curb the day before trash day and see what happens. But, the "good" side says to be a scout and be fair. It would be nice to have our garage back though! Suggestions?


Thanks to all!


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I will not..repaet...WILL NOT say that the other person is to blame. Noe will I say you are to blame. There are too many things that I did not personally see or hear, and the tone or particular situation when something was said can make a BIG difference on how it should be taken.


Okay, Let me say that, while not intimately familiar with your particular series of event...It does souynd like something I have witnessed in general from trhe side, the front and personally.




You ever have somebody say something to you, and it turns out you took it the wrong way? Mabe that comment sounded sarcastic, but really wasn't. Maybe that remark sounded condescending, but wasn't afterall.


Sometimes, the way you recieve or interpret a comment or action is actually more of a a reflection of you than the person who said or did it.


See, here's the thing, for all the stuff you said the guy did, it seems that the pack and committee and members of the CO still don't have an issue with him.


I was a ADL last year, people regarded me as "THE" DL of my sons den. Why? I really can't say for sure, but maybe because I showed up early for , and left late for evey den meeting and every pack meeting and every pack event.

When we went camping,. I not only assisted the boys and parents within my den, but would also help anybody withing our pack where needed. I helps with all kinds of committes, fundraisers and such.


Now, I do not in any way blame our DL( because work is work - especially in these economuic times) but he would show up late sometimes. Other times he would call when the den meetings were supposed to sart and ask if I could cover for him.


So after time goes by and a few parenst would pass by him and ask me about something pertaining to their son or a den event, this DL decides that I am undermining him. A kid from the den calls me the "leader" in front of the DL. Hre thinks I am telling the boys to do this.


At a leadership meeting, I openly state that I would like the honor of being a DL "ALSO" in the following year.


Another den leader says someth9imng to the effect of " WEll, you practically already are one."


He said it ( if you were intimately familiar with him) in a way that only meant I was experienced enough to do the job. He in no way slammed the DL or put him down.


So anyways, without anything actually being said or implied, our DL got upset and figured everybody was going behind his back talking about him and making him look bad.


That was NOT the case> I was only doing what an ADL is supposed to do per BSA ( just a few highlites)


* Be ready to fill in for the den leader in case of an emergency.

*Take part in the annual pack program planning conference for den leaders, ADL's, and pack leaders.

*Work in harmony with other den and pack leaders.


Now, when I stated my intentions ..well asked the leadership about bevcoming a DL, the wife of the DL got upset and tok it as a personal attck on her husband. She said that it wasn't up to the leadership to determine if I was to become a leader, but up to her husband, the current DL for our den .




OKay, so what does all this come to? Well, the best I can tell is this: The DL ( who is a great guy beyond whay I said above) and his wife didn't understand the program..or at the very least, saw a different version of it. They thought things should be done differently than the way they were being done.


Nothing wrong with that either...except when two different groups within a bigger group think things should be done "their " way.


And there are always 20 ways to do something right. You jusy have to either agree on it, or make sure the minority knows what the majority agreed on. Know what I mean?



Now, I can "sympathyze with the guy on one account for sure: I have a deep loud voice. I have been accused of yelling and hollering even when I am not. Even when I am just laugghing or talking in MY normal voice, people have thought I was being loud.


Of course, over time, those same people figure out I just have a loud voice and realize that I am not hollering or yelling....but they got to know me well to figure it out.


NOw, I am not talikng this guys side over yours. I am not taking yours over his. I am just saying that there are two sides to everything and two different versions at that too.



And one thing different about our pack is this: we have leadership meetings where the COR,CC, CM and ACM are all present with all the DL's and ADL's too. We talk about what we are going to do, how, what and when.


But when we are not at those meetings, the CC and COR do not really tell the ACM or DL's and ADL's what to do. If the feel something needs to be done, they tell the CM, whos job it is to direct the leadership under him.


Not saying it has to be that way, but something to think about.


Anyways, I bet alot of what happened is more due to misunderstandings and lack of communication...and personal interpretation that actual spite .


Best of luck to you.

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All I am saying is this: Sometimes...somebody might misunderstand something and take it the wrong way. After that, their viewpoint is skewered somewhat, and what started out as nothing can escalate into a big issue.


This may be the case with you, your husband, the CM who was the ACM or whatever and also part of the pack membership.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

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"We still have a ton of their things in our garage that someone needs to come and get. "


Email the committee and tell them you will drop off these items at the meetin' place.


Don't call, unless you're willing to have a conversation. Sticking to email lets you be terse & keeps you in control of what you do and do not say. You'll have the luxury of reviewing your words before committing, and it'll be easier to avoid letting your hurt be seen. Assuming you don't want them to know your feelings. Which I wouldn't.


Emailing three or four or five people at once means you have corroboration that you are behaving like an adult and when they can expect their stuff.

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I like the idea of dropping off where they meet. However, I don't know when their first meeting will be. They have them at our school. I know they're on Tues. nights, but not sure when. The man I tried to remove told the whole pack that when he was removed, he wanted everything out of his garage that was "scout related by July 15 or he would put it on the curb for other people to take or for the garbage day". We have a LOT more in our garage than he did. A lot of the stuff we have, membership needs, but the membership person walked out on them, so there's no person like that to hand it to. One person (man who used to be CM)is still talking to us and us to him, but he doesn't want the stuff b/c now he's "only a Tiger DL". He doesn't want any more involvement.


I don't want to give them an ultimatum, but our garage has been their storage area for about 4-5 years now. It's time they come and get this stuff. We've been asking people to take it since the beginning of last year, knowing we'd be done this spring. No one ever offers to take it. Not all of it is big even: signs for roundup, apps, info, paper goods, craft supplies, etc. Some are big, but the little things could be taken and stored easily.


I just want to be done with it and not have to deal with any of this anymore.


As far as the earlier comment about misunderstanding what the man said and poor communication, verbal abuse is verbal abuse. NO ONE should EVER be talked to in the fashion he did to me. It's not professional or polite for that matter. I didn't call to fight, but he wanted to fight with me and as he kept yelling and yelling, I became scared. This man is physically huge (6'7") and has scared some of the moms in our pack. I know most of you are probably men who are reading this, but ladies, if you've ever been physically, mentally, or emotionally overtaken by a man, you can understand how I felt on the phone with this person. I couldn't leave my house for 2 days. (He is ex-Air Force MP and still has guns, etc. in his house) I was that scared of him. That's how violent he was on the phone. Had he called the next day and explained he was having a bad day, didn't mean to raise his voice, etc., maybe I would've gone easier on him. However, my point is that I didn't want that side of him to "pop" out at a child or parent, especially another mom. His temper has come out before to some of the men, but never to this extent. (didn't find that out until later...)


So yes, there are 2 sides to every issue. But no one in the pack (w/exception of my son's leader) asked me what happened. Everyone read his letter, took his word for it, and went from there. When he wrote his letter of "apology and explanation of yelling", he admitted to overreacting, yelling so loud neighbors 2 doors down could hear him, and saying things he shouldn't have said. Funny thing, he didn't send the letter to me. My husband got it with the other leaders. Not the whole pack, so they never saw his admission. He copied our DE though, although she didn't see the first letter he wrote.


The guy is just smarmy and shouldn't be in a leadership position. Case closed.

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In ref to the supplies, I'd email everyone politely stating that since you resigned your position, you no longer want to be responsible for storing the unit's gear. Then state that the time and place that you will be dropping off everything, possibly at the meeting location. If that doesn't work, then go ahead and drop it off at the new CM's house.


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To get rid of the materials from your former pack, contact the Unit Commissioner and see if he will intercede on your behalf with the new leadership in the pack. If the UC won't help, go over his head to the District Commissioner. The DC gets paid the "big bucks" to solve these types of problems. Otherwise, send a letter to the President of the Chartered Org and make this HIS problem. Give him a deadline to solve the problem. Technically, the Chartered Org "owns" the Pack, and therefore owns the materials.


Good luck.


And thank you for all you have done and (hopefully) will do for Scouting.

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So, being as "smarmy" as the new CM will accomplish what exactly?


No matter what has happened, the stuff in your garage is not yours. It belongs to the Pack, and the Pack's Charter Organization. The Pack (ALL of the families) knows this, and more importantly, YOU know this.


It seems to me that this Pack's Charter Org is one of those self-made ones, like "Friends of Pack 123". And as such there is no Charter Organization building to drop off the stuff at. The school they meet at is NOT the Charter Organization, and might not have any place to store the stuff, or even want it there.


You stated that you know the head (President) of the Charter Organization well, so I assume you know where he lives. Contact him immediately by phone (not letter), and let him know that you will be dropping off all of the stuff at his home this weekend. If you have to leave a message, give him a specific date and time, that you will be dropping the stuff off, and let him know to phone you if there is a problem.


Then drop off the Pack's stuff with the owner of the Pack. If for whatever reason no one is there when you go to drop it off, knock on a neighbor's door and leave it with them. Then call the President of the CO, and let him know to contact his neighbor. At this point you can do an e-mail blast to the COR, CC, and the Committee members, letting them know of the disposition of the Pack's property.


Doing any less, is just not right, and will set a VERY BAD example for your son.

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This must be a rule of conflicts:


"The moment you think you have the upper hand ... prepare for resounding defeat."


Sorry you experienced this in a Scouting venue, but it happens elsewhere.

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Nike - Thank you for your idea of giving it to the DE. She lives nowhere near me, but I could drop it off at her office in the council office.


Can't bring it to the CO b/c they don't have their own building. The President of the CO would want nothing to do with it and I'm not sure where he lives. We live in a very big suburb of Chicago, IL.


ScoutNut - I never mentioned that I'd be "smarmy" as the new CM. I was simply stating that after asking, for months, for people to come and pick up some things, with no results, I'm tempted to just leave it out for them. It should be evident by now that I'm not stooping to their levels, but it is tempting to do so b/c they make it look so simple. I'm VERY aware it all belongs to the pack and not me. If it was mine, it'd be gone already!


The reason why this is all in our garage in the first place is b/c other people want to park their cars in their garages and won't give up space to store a box or two. None of our cars have ever seen the inside of our garage and we've been here over 5 years.


I appreciate everyone's input, but please don't make me out to be the bad person. I'm just tired of them taking advantage of our whole family and am looking for input to help me figure out the best way to get out of all of this. I know there's a lot of years in scouting on this site and more people have probably been through something similar than who'd like to admit.


I realize things like this happen in other groups in the "outside" world. I'm a former teacher and politics run rampant in school buildings. I've worked in offices and we all know it's there too. It just saddens me to think that something as important as scouting has been brought to this. I honestly thought I might be one of those "lifer" moms, but if it's not to meant to be, than that is the way it'll be. I will non-leader volunteer and try to be happy there. :) Scouting is too important for me to drop it completely (it's almost an addiction, you know?) :)

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I would NOT give the Pack's property to your DE.


It is not the DE's job to be a storage facility or delivery person for a Pack. Also, if none of your Pack leaders has the room in their garages for the stuff, what makes you think your council offices will have room to store it? I have been in mine, (also in a suburb of Chicago) and I KNOW they do not. Especially not in any DE's "office". Our DE's have a cubicle, like any other office worker, and rather small ones at that.


The Charter Organization (NOT your council) OWNS the Pack.


The COR is the CO's link to the Pack it owns.


The CC is the head of the Pack's business end of things.


Telephone the President of the CO, the COR, or the CC. Or all of them if you must. If none of them want the Pack's property returned to them, then you can give it to your council to be given to a needy Pack, to another youth program, or whatever. At that point I would send an email to the President of the CO, the COR, and the CC (you might even include the CM), that because CO, COR and CC, confirmed that the property was no longer needed/wanted by the Pack that you have disposed of it by --- .



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