Requirements for Den Chief?

[Tami the Mom]

I want to get my son and some of the other boys in his troop trained as den chiefs so they can be official for daycamp this year. I have asked his scoutmaster and assistants several times, and keep meeting with either blank stares or downright denial of knowledge. So I tried looking myself, but I cannot find anything that gives me the requirements for a Boy Scout to be a DC. Are there minimum age requirements? One page I found says they are "usually" first class, but not that they have to be. Help!

[msnowman]

AFAIK there are no "specific" qualifications for a youth to be a Den Chief, other than be registered with a Troop or Crew (and maybe Post?). I believe the 1st Class and above thing varies by Troop. Nephew is in his 2nd year as a Den Chief and is still only 2nd Class, but does a great at what he does. Our District conducts Den Chief training and recommends that the youth be 1st Class or higher, but they don't deny training to a willing participant.

 

Like many things, YMMV

 

YiS

Michelle

[ScoutNut]

A Boy Scout does not have to be a Den Chief in order to be on Day Camp Staff. These are 2 completely different positions.

 

To be a Boy Scout youth staff member of your Cub Scout Day Camp, simply call your Day Camp Director & sign them up. They might need to provide the DCD with a current health form.

 

To be a Den Chief the Cubmaster should be contacted to find dens that are in need of Den Chiefs. The boys really should be appointed (or at least approved) by their SM & SPL. There is no hard & fast age requirement for a Den Chief, however, they are more effective when there is more than 1 year difference between them & their Cubs. The boys do not need SM approval in order to take training. Find out from your council when the next Den Chief training is taking place & have the boys sign up if they are interested.

 

[eagle-pete]

Tami the Mom

 

I am a little confused by your question. As ScoutNut pointed out, Den Chiefs have nothing to do with Cub Day Camp, at least as far as participation on a Day Camp staff is concerned.

 

You may be confusing Den Chief with some other position in Boy Scouts. Take a look at this site: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/dc.html

That should answer many of your questions.

 

If your son (or any boy scout) is selected to be a Den Chief they will then need to be trained and they will need to know the responsibilities of the Den Chief. This is not a casual position (which is why there is a suggested age difference between the cubs and the Den Chief and why the scout is selected by the SM/SPL). A poorly trained Den Chief who doesn't take the position seriously can be more of a problem than help for a den.

 

Find out exactly what a Den Chief is and then, if that is really the position you are thinking of, bring it up with the Cubmaster.

 

Eagle Pete

[Jeffrey H]

Requirements for Den Chief?

 

A willing Boy Scout that really enjoys working with Cubs. They make fine assistants and can keep up with the Cubs better than we "old folks" can.

 

If classroom training is not available, your Pack leadership can train them. Guidance on this in found in the Den Chief Handbook under Den Chief Service Award.

[Tami the Mom]

Ok, well, to clarify, the reason I am asking is because my sons troop seems bent on denying boys the right to participate in outside activities. This fall, they decided that only 1st class and above could participate in the Webelos Woods program, and since all of the boys in the troop 1st class and above had other plans, they didn't participate at all, even though (as a program chair) I told them we would happily take ANY scouts who knew the layout of the camp property, as most of the parents don't, and we'd need boys to help move the Cubs from program area to program area. They still declined. LAST MINUTE.

 

I am the Cub daycamp director. My son has helped out since the first year he crossed to Boy Scouts. The kids love him, the parents and staff love him, he has a great time, and never once has he uttered the phrase "I am a den chief, you have to do what I say". However - his troop leadership has now decided that they won't allow ANY of the boys (of course they can't stop me from taking my son) to help at daycamp unless they are fully DC trained thru council. As it happens, last years daycamp director is on the council training staff, and will be doing DC training in March. Except now I am hearing rumblings of "the boy has to be 14 and 1st class." My son is 12 and 2nd class. He will be 1st class by summercamp, but not by March when the training is done. His birthday is in August, so it will be two full summers before he is 14.

 

Now as far as being a DC for pack events, we cannot get the troop to offer them. I am the ACM of our pack, and our CM has repeatedly asked for DC's. They keep telling us none of the boys are interested, however - again, they will only consider boys who are 1st class and above, putting them in 8th grade or above, and now busy with the 3 W's. Sadly, in our one-horse town, we also only have one troop.

 

So you can see now, I am looking to find out if there is anything on paper that says a 12 year old, 2nd Class rank Scout can NOT be a DC or help at camp. (I have gone several rounds with the SM and ASM about the difference between DC for camp and DC for meetings, and they won't listen.)

 

Phew! Now, if anyone can help me find some way to convince them to stop being so exclusionary, I would appreciate it.

[msnowman]

Tami - Nephew was an 11 1/2 yo Scout (not even Tfoot) when he started Den Chiefing for my Wolf/Bear Den. His SM and SPL had zero care factor in his age/rank or even if he became a DC. Our Pack had tried all thru Nephew's Cub career to get DC's from the Troop...finally we just grew our own. Our other DC last year was a 12yo 1st Class. I'm not sure you will find anything on paper allowing or banning a 12yo/2nd Class Den Chief, but for the record I had one until Nephew turned 13.

 

Good luck and stick with it.

Michelle

[SSScout]

TtheM: Your Troop is truly in the stone age. (point out to them that the Stegasaurus Husbandry MB is no longer required for Pteronodon). DChs are derigeur in most Troops. "A Scout is Helpful". Some Troops even consider DChs a PoR. for advancement. A good DCh just eats up the Cub attention. Talk about admiration and big brother/hero worship!

 

Den Chief and CSDC Scout Staffer are, indeed, two different things.

DCs need to be (1) motivated to help Cubs and (2) encouraged by some Scouter. Age is not a consideration, only desire to help and learn. Take the official training that is offered, but "on the job" with a knowledgeable DL is often the best. If the nascent DCh sits around or 'bosses' the Cubs "because he can", then two things are true: first, the DL is taking too much of a hands off attitude and second, the DCh is taking too much for granted (and hasn't learned the Scout Law).

CSDC needs "a few good Scouts". You can ask for volunteers thru R/T, at MB Days, thru the District newsletter, etc. Or ask the OA for staffing help. My Truly Significant Other happens to be CSDC Director, and she has established the standard that Youth Staffers MUST be First Class Scouts (age not a consideration). This owes from past experiences with Scouts we didn't know who were young and out for fun first and helping a poor second. Also, the county schools asked if they could send some teens to help us that needed "service hours". These youngsters were not terribly well motivated to be there, and needed ALOT of supervision with assigned tasks, where as the FC Scouts knew how to help. OA Scouts often don't even need to be told to help, they recognize the need and jump in to the fray themselves. District and Council have never failed to back up MTSO in her requirement. The CSDC has greatly benefitted thereby.

 

YiS KiSMiF!

[ScoutNut]

My son's SM is another dino. He does not wnat the boys helping with Cub events, he does not even tell them there is a request. He is not big on Den Chiefs, especially young ones.

 

My son asked if he had an objection to him being a Den Chief in Sept of his 6th grade year. SM pretty much said he didn't care, but don't look to get any kind of credit for it. My son took the training on his own & was a Den Chief until last week. On his 18th birthday he turned in the paperwork to become an Asst Den Leader.

 

He has also staffed CS Day Camp & Summer Camp & various other 1 day Cub events. All on his own.

 

He never did get credit for Den Chief as a POR or anything else from his SM. He also never got credit for any service for all of the service he gave Council & Cub Scouting. He did it all on his own.

 

Have your son talk to his buddies in the Troop. The SM can NOT stop the boys from signing up if they want to do it on their own.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Per BSA advancement requirements, Den Chief is on the approved list as a POR. The SM does not decide this. If a Scout wants to be a Den Chief and the Pack approves, he's in. If he goes to DC training, he can wear the TRAINED strip as well. If the Troop will not give him a position patch, the Pack can present it. If the SM will not give him advancement credit for a POR, you can appeal to the District Advancement Committee.

 

I have a hard time with these leaders who think they can make up their own rules, especially when it comes to advancement requirements.

[FScouter]

The purpose of a den chief is to work with a den of Cub Scouts and assist the den leader with den meetings. The position doesnt exist to provide help for a pack event or with Cub Scout day camp. Any Scout can help with an event without being a den chief.

 

Den Chief is a Boy Scout troop position, not a Cub Scout pack position. A Cubmaster looking for a den chief to serve a den should approach the Scoutmaster of a troop to discuss the need and how the troop might help fill the need. Assuming the Scoutmaster and Cubmaster have a meeting of minds, a den chief is then selected by the troop senior patrol leader, with the guidance of the Scoutmaster. Leadership training is conducted by the troop, as with any other Boy Scout position of responsibility. The new den chief should also attend the district or council level den chief training.

 

A boy cannot decide upon himself to be a den chief any more than he can decide to be a scribe or quartermaster or patrol leader. Adult Cub Scouters cannot make the decision either. All positions of responsibility are either elected or appointed by the troop SPL.

[Eamonn]

Not sure how to say this in a nice way!

But somehow I kinda think that there is a difference between being a Den Chief and being the son of the Den Leader, who is at the meeting anyway!

I wonder how the Scout would feel if he was assigned to a Den which wasn't led by his parent?

I seem to remember reading that the SM assigns working with the Cub Scouter's on Den Chief selection to a ASM?

But I might be wrong.

 

I have served as Day Camp Director. While older Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts can really be a big help. Young Boy Scouts who are close to the same age as the older Cub Scouts do tend to forget the reason why they are at the camp.

Of course there exceptions to every rule.

A 11 or 12 year old Scout seeing Webelos Scouts a year or so younger than him having fun, will want to join in.

This doesn't make him a bad kid, it just means that he is still a kid!!

Ea.

[Tami the Mom]

Ea - I'm not sure how any of that pertains to my question. First, I am not a denleader, so I'm not asking to drag him to meetings I am leading. If we ever are able to get DC's from the only troop in our town, we'd make sure to assign them to dens where they don't have a younger brother or cousin. And we would definitely not put an 11 year old Boy Scout with a Webelos den, because they are too close in age, and the Cubs would not see a "Boy Scout", they'd see a "five minutes ago he was a Cub Scout". Of course all of this is moot, since we cannot get the SM or ASM or SPL or even the ASPL to discuss the possibility of giving us DCs. They tell us they will ask the boys, and then they don't. Or they only ask the older boys who already have jobs, sports, girlfriends and cars to take up all their free time. They won't even consider asking the boys who are younger than 14. That's why I came here asking for supporting information to show them that a 12 year old, 2nd class scout, can in fact become a DC.

 

We have always had Boy Scouts at camp who were just a year or two out of Cubs. We sometimes assign them to help with dens of younger Cubs - parents of Tigers and Wolfs might not know the layout of the property, so it's handy to have a boy who does. Or we station them in the sports field, to help corral the kids during games, a job that our adult volunteers wear out on during a hot, sunny day. Sometimes we just use them as runners - being a Cubs latrine buddy, or bringing supplies around the property. And no matter what - we always attach them to a den who is going to the beach, so they can get a few minutes in the water, and we set aside specific times for them in archery when there are no Cubs. Even the Eagles who have helped at camp enjoy those perks. We've never had a problem with a DC trying to join in arts & crafts. They like being older, having more responsibilities.

[Lisabob]

Tami, first off, I sympathize. It sounds like you have a pretty reasonable request and you're not getting a very reasonable response from the troop. Maybe there are other troops in other nearby towns (or somewhere in the district) who might be more cooperative. As for this troop:

 

My understanding too was that DCs are selected by the SM and do not "self select." I cannot imagine a situation in which the SM says "no," a boy serves as if he were a DC anyway (recognition via the pack instead of the troop), and it turns out well for everyone in the end. I think it behooves a boy, his parents, and the cub and troop leaders in question, to be in agreement or else it isn't going to work and will likely cause resentment and other problems later (keeping in mind that the SM gets to sign off on SM conferences and scout spirit, this seems like one might be setting the boy up for a problem if the SM is that adamant about him not being a DC and this is the only troop in town).

 

SO what I propose is that rather than you, Tami, trying to force the situation (which clearly isn't working from your description), get your UC and/or your DE and/or some other person outside your unit with whom you and the SM relate well, involved. Ask them to talk with the SM about the purpose of the Den Chief program. He may be under the impression that boys have to be a certain age/rank. He may just not understand what DCs are supposed to do. If he's simply being obstructionist for no reason, he may be more willing to re-think if approached by that outside person than if pushed by you, even if you're right and he isn't. And by the way I don't think it is a good idea to go around the SM to the SPL or ASPL - that puts them (as youth) in an awkward position between the two of you. Keep them out of the adult politics.

[ScoutNut]

In my son's case, he never "went around" the SM. The SM does not believe in the the Den Chief program. He does not use Den Chief as a POR at all, for anyone. He does not appoint Den Chiefs. If a CM asked him for a Den Chief, at the end of a Troop meeting he will ask the boys present if anyone is interested in being a Den Chief for Pack 1234 & if no one raises his hand that is the end of it for another year or 2, until he gets another request.

 

My son asked the SM for permission to take Den Chief training & to be a Den Chief in the Pack. The SM said he did not care. My son took that as permission, took Den Chief training & became a Den Chief when he was in 6th grade.

 

That first year the Pack Committee put him in with the 4th grade Webelos. The following year, the Wolf den leaders asked for him. He was their Den Chief from Wolf thru crossover to Boy Scouts. He then became the Den Chief for the Bear den & will see them cross to Boy Scouts this year.

 

He also got other Boy Scouts involved in becoming Den Chiefs. Some worked out & some did not. Currently 2 of his former Cub Scouts are trained Den Chiefs & doing great jobs. Thru the examples set by all of our Den Chiefs of what a Boy Scout is, more of our Cubs have crossed to Boy Scout Troops & stayed in Scouts.

 

Tommorrow, our church's Scout Sunday service will be my son's 1st official duty as an Asst. Den Leader for our Pack's Wolf den!

 

Thru all of the years he has been a Den Chief, although he has periodically helped me out with games & Pack meeting awards for my Tigers, he has NEVER been a Den Chief for any den led by either of his parents. However, maybe in 3 years, when his Wolves cross to Boy Scouts, & he is 21, he can take over my Tiger Den & I can retire!