A kid pulling a knife on other kids

[Beavah 205]

as we know, fixed blades, such as hunting knives are against BSA rules.

 

Nah. No such rule.

 

"We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives." (G2SS #34416 p. 43)

 

In most cases, a fixed-blade knife is safer than a folding knife, especially a non-locking folding blade knife. The only loose BSA guideline is to "avoid large sheath knives [because] they are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish." In other words, proper tool for proper job.

 

Da problem wasn't the knife. The boy could have been stabbed with any knife. The problem was the lack of supervision and instillin' in the kids a respect for the proper use of any type of knife.

 

Amazin' how similar this was to Its Me's case, eh? Some bullyin' and pranksterin' that ends in brandishing a knife and a stabbing. It's Me's case stopped short of the stabbin', but give the boy a year or two to get older and more resolute.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eamonn 61]

What am I missing?

It seems that a group of Cub Scouts are throwing potatoes at each other.

Where are the adults?

Why haven't they stepped in to put a stop to this?

What difference does the religious affiliation of the kid with the knife make?

Scouts are climbing ropes?

Where is the adult supervision?

Our school district has a zero tolerance for kids with knives. Any student caught with a knife faces an automatic suspension, pulling a knife and they end up in front of the local JP!!

Of course this isn't the school district, but pulling a knife is a big deal and needs to be treated as a big deal.

What happens to the Scout is up to the Pack Committee.

I think if I were the parent of any Cub Scout at this camp I would have very deep concerns about the adult leadership or lack of leadership. I know that I'd be looking for a Pack which understands that boys will be boys, and takes steps to ensure that situations like this one never are allowed to happen.

These are Cub Scouts, many of them have not got to the stage where they understand that there are consequences for their actions. Throwing stones, potatoes or turnips is not acceptable behaviour.

Eamonn.

 

[eagle-pete 11]

Ok Beavah,

 

You got me on that one.

 

I just called our council office. I was referred to the Guide to Safe Scouting where it states "Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish." This does not prohibit the use of sheath knives, but it does appear to discourage their use (I wonder why?).

 

Our local council has a policy of no knives over 4" in blade length and folding blades are strongly recommended. Also, the Scout Camps in our council have rules in place like - no sheath blades - period, boys age 11+ must have a Tote-n-Chit card on them to carry a knife, boys age 10 and younger must have a Tote-n-Chit card as well as a Whittle-n-Chit card to carry a knife (boys of this age must, of course, adhere to any additional requirements outlined on their Whittle-n-Chit card).

 

So youre right. The general BSA policies do not prohibit boys from carrying sheath knives - but let's use common sense...

 

Eagle Pete

[SWScouter 34]

About the letter, this is a letter to members of a Cub Scout Pack, not a Boy Scout Troop. I'd look towards the Cub Scout Promise and Law, not the Boy Scout ones.

 

SWScouter

[Beavah 205]

Our local council has a policy of no knives over 4" in blade length and folding blades are strongly recommended. Also, the Scout Camps in our council have rules in place like - no sheath blades - period, ... but let's use common sense...

 

Yah, eagle-pete. I've never quite figured out what the whole hang up with fixed-blade knives is. Worked a lotta years in health lodges, and worked with a lotta knives, and I can tell yeh that those fiddlin' little cheap crap folding blade pen knives cause the most injuries, some of 'em serious. Especially in kids, who aren't careful about the limits of non-locking blades and care in closing. Some of our colleague scout associations in Europe require fixed blade "sheath" knives for safety reasons.

 

The reason for the blade length limit has to do with weapons laws in some states (though I've never figured out what those states do about bread knives, eh? ). The reason for a prohibition on fixed-blade knives is some ignoramus doesn't understand how to do real risk management.

 

 

[Gonzo1 10]

Gotta agree with Beavah,

 

The only other thing I would add is that IMHO cubs, even Webelos are too young for pocket knives. In other words: No knife, no weapon, no injuries. They can get a knife in boy Scouts. IMO, they just don't NEED one in cub scouts.

 

 

[Eagledad 2777]

>>The reason for a prohibition on fixed-blade knives is some ignoramus doesn't understand how to do real risk management.

[Its Me 10]

 

 

SWScouter,

 

I choose the oath and law that are the requirments for Webelos scouts. The boy is a Webelos II scout.

 

 

[eagle-pete 11]

Gonzo1

 

That is precisely why our council requires a boy to earn the Tote-n-Chit/Whittle-n-Chit for the privilege of carrying a knife. We don't want to penalize boys who demonstrate responsible, safe knife use by prohibiting the tool altogether, because we're afraid someone might get hurt. We want to instill responsible behavior with tools early on so that good habits are already in place when they are older and, frankly, able to do more harm with a weapon, which they will get ahold of, whether we've prohibited it or not.

 

Folks, we could go round and round and round with this - debating the safety issues, policies, and rational of the use of knives in scouting. The bottom line here is there is a tried and tested Guide to Safe Scouting which has been in place for many years, and which we, as Scout Leaders, should know and follow. It is a GUIDE which we use to help maintain a safe environment for the boys. Let's move forward, using the safe principles and common sense we all know. Let's keep our eyes and ears open to safety issues, warning signs, and behaviors which can lead to tragedy, like those mentioned in this thread. Let's involve the parents of the boys and make them part of our team to ensure their boys have a quality program.

 

Yours in Scouting

 

Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

[eagle-pete 11]

CORRECTION:

 

In my posts regarding the Totin' Chip and Whittling Chip awards, I used incorrect terminology. The actual terms are, in fact, Totin' Chip and Whittling Chip. The Totin' Chip award is a Boy Scout award and the Whittling Chip is a Cub Scout award.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

Eagle Pete

[Greg Nelson 10]

Oh, boy! The communication you are getting from the mom is setting off warning bells in my head!

 

I have a boy in my pack with a similar behavior pattern. Anytime he does something wrong, there is always a reason or excuse why he HAD to do X or Y. "He started it, they were bugging me, I couldn't hear you", etc. Or my favorite - "I didn't do it, it was Johnny!" - not effective when I witness things firsthand.

 

"A Scout is honest" aside, that's to be expected from a young boy. The problem is that his parents always buy into his excuses. They just don't get that there ARE no excuses for bad behavior. I handle that boy by not even bothering to go to the parents anymore with behavior issues. What happens in the pack or den is punished in the pack or den. Not surprisingly, he is better-behaved at the meetings without his parents around. I can still remember the look of shock on his face the first time I refused to let him even offer a rationale for some misdeed. "You mean I can't B.S. my way out of this like I do at home?"

 

From what I'm reading here, it sounds like the same thing might be going on. As it happens, my "problem child" is also Buddhist - maybe it's the non-confrontational thing preventing assertive parenting. But, unlike me, you're not dealing with grabbing markers or calling kids "stupid", you're talking criminal behavior.

 

When told her son is brandishing a knife, why does she come back with suggestions to address bullying in the pack? It's possible that bullying led to him pulling the knife, but it doesn't excuse it. And does she really believe her son's story? It's clear that you don't, and I wouldn't either. But I think SHE believes it - otherwise, why would she pass it on to you?

 

And that last note, that she is "handling it on her end"? Don't count on it. I bet "You shouldn't have done that" will be the start and end of that punishment. I would let her know that she can handle it however she wants at home, but there will be additional handling on the pack level. As a previous poster noted, he needs to have the hammer dropped on him. And based on mom's willingness to come up with reasons to excuse his behavior, it won't be happening at home.

 

This kid is no longer a little boy. He will be in middle school next year. If he had done this at school, he'd be going to the "special" school - the one located in the juvenile detention center.

 

[MollieDuke 10]

In our groups BOTH BS and CS, we consider pulling a knife a CRIME. If this child were on the streets of NYC and pulled a knife on someone on the street, it would be a crime. If they were in school and pulled a knife, they would be taken down and it would constitute a crime. I'm rather concerned that this child's first defense is pulling a knife ESPECIALLY if he's from an anti-violence family, because exactly where did he learn this particular line of defense?

 

Make sure the parents realize that it doesn't matter WHY he pulled the knife. It is a CRIME and cannot be tolerated. Then, tell them that considering the trouble they seem to have in attempting to justify their son's crime by pointing out what was being done to him (real or distorted view), then they should stay with him on the next few scout functions and be his guide for his temper.

 

I'm not negating the behavior of the other children, however, pulling weapons is a crime and should always be treated as such. If he'd pulled a GUN, we'd not be having this discussion.

 

I work in the school system, and believe me, kids know all too well how to point blame on everyone except themselves and we've got to get a handle on excusing bad behaviors for kids. They MUST learn to step up to the plate and be responsible for their actions. You cannot control what others say and do to you, but you can and must control your response to it. This child, clearly, has learned to point blame toward others to get the weight off himself.

 

Make sure he has a watchdog from now on and pat him down before he's allowed to hurt someone by not being able to control himself. You're skating on thin ice if you do not put some serious restrictions in place with this kid.

[packsaddle 753]

I have to admit it is difficult for me to set aside my thoughts that currently apply to Boy Scouts and return to my mindset back when I was a cubmaster. But as much as I tend to agree with Beavah and Gonzo1, I think the distinction is in supervision.

When I was cubmaster, we never had an incident that came even close to anything like this. The boys often used knives and other potentially dangerous, sharp instruments. We did all kinds of things as a pack and in the dens and remembering those times now makes me long for those days again, I really liked the cubs and miss them a lot.

 

There were almost no times when adult supervision was not applied to the cubs. When we built pinewood derby cars, the boys used knives, chisels, saws, power drills, all kinds of tools and it was done with one-on-one supervision, safely.

We almost never had an injury worse than a nick or scratch.

As a pack, we cut and made hiking staffs using saws and pocketknives, again with close supervision. We had really great times allowing the boys to grow in their responsible use of potentially dangerous tools.

 

In the case cited originally, and here I agree with eamonn, a large number of boys were unsupervised and, as I would have done when I was that young if I spotted those air potatoes, they started throwing things at each other. The rest of the story is a completely predictable outcome....with poor supervision.

Yes, the boy made a poor decision pulling the knife. He is still early in the development of his ability to make good personal decisions, there is plenty of time for him to improve. He should lose the knife. He should be punished in an appropriate manner. The boys throwing the air potatoes should also be addressed in a proper manner.

But the solution that I see to the situation is not simply punishing the knife-wielder, but rather getting the adults to take their supervisory responsibilities seriously and prevent these situations in the first place. IMHO

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

We have managed to soundly beat the Air Potato or is it Potatoe? incident into its proper consistency.

 

Here is my air-head conversation with myself in a simulated situation.

 

There were two incidents and several were in on the problem. Everyone involved should be brought to justice. People should not be throwing things at anyone for any reason at anytime. Nobody should use a knife or any kind of instrument to inflict or threaten violence. Fighting with fists is not allowed either.

 

Boys should ask, Yes, but what if I am in danger?

 

The answer is that we do not prepare people to defend themselves in Scouting. We are teaching people to get along with each other. Getting along is a skill that will allow a person to earn a living, live long and be prosperous. Defense and attack is a skill that may be needed but it should be done in the Armed Force/Police where we should use such measures as a last resort.

 

Boys should ask, Yes, but what if I am being bullied?

 

The answer is that you need to learn to back down, run, or get out anyway possible. Justice is to be left up to those that are in charge. Notify the adults in charge, the authorities, somebody that can do something about it.

 

Boys should ask, Yes, but I dont want to be a coward and I dont want to be a snitch.

 

In Scouting, we are helping boys learn skills that will help in times when survival is necessary. When confronted, we do not want Scouts to learn to stand their ground and make matters worse. When matters get worse, it is called escalation. We want Scouts to learn how to make matters better or deescalate the situation. These are skills that can make your life better and if used on a grander scale can make the world a better and safer place. These skills used effectively as first measures can result in not using last resort measures, such as war.

 

With regard to knives and knife use, I want to share a couple of insights. The first one is that a knife is a tool intended for practical use. Anytime that a knife leaves the ring, scabbard, sheath or pocket it should have a proper use, such as cutting wood for a fire to cook or stay warm. Most Cub Scout age boys can learn to use a knife but they also have a problem with losing things. Over the years, I have witnessed a wide redistribution of knife ownership in several camps. I recommend that knives stay in a box while in camp and be checked out when there is a practical use. That also gives the adults an idea of when and where they are being used.

 

My last insight is that most pre-firebuilding and cooking can be done with a good pair of gloves. There should be a Glove-chit in Scouting. You dont cut yourself, they are harder to lose and easier to find. Scouts generally dont threaten each other with gloves and they can be used for warmth.

 

End of self conversation. fb

 

[cyboji59 10]

Two things bother me on this one. Where was the leadership? How could this happen twice?

1.SAFTEY is the number one issue. These aren't boy scouts yet - someone should have been around when a boy is getting pinned to the ground by four others, and at minimum look into the problem. How could leaders and parents not have heard about it the first day? Or heard the ruckus going on. I know if this happened with my boys it would have been all over camp.

2.The harassment is just a big of an issue as the knife. A good program would have no tolerance for this.

3.Parental and pack leadership need to be in agreement with consequences for all involved. If none are ageed upon, the DE needs to be involved.

4.Get your leaders properly trained.

 

I would have sent the knife boy home immediately (if he was in my pack). He would be banned from camp for a year and had his chip revoked thru cub scouts. The hat pulling boy would have been sent home also. Any repeat of behavior problems would be dismissal of either.

Sounds hardline - but the main objective is saftey.