Webelos Patrol? or Webelos Den?

[fgoodwin]

funscout: placement of the webelos den emblem is illustrated on p34 of the Webelos Scout Handbook (2003 edition).

 

The picture itself, however, does not give the patch a name. It only shows how it is placed on the uniform.

[LongHaul]

I think this has been cleared up but I'd just like everyone to remember that Webelos are still Cub Scouts. They are in a state of transition between Adult run and Boy run, between Den Leader inspired and Boy inspired activities, but they are still part of the Cub Scout Program. It's called the Webelos Den Leader Award not the Assistant CubMaster in charge of the Webelos Patrol Award.

LongHaul

[northlandscouter]

I just did a Google search on this topic and I am happy I found it. It am glad to see others are experiencing this issue. It would be great if BSA National would put out definitive guidance on this.

 

We are having this same disagreement in our Pack mainly with those adults that are current Webelos den leaders or parents. It doesn't help when our local Roundtable trains that Webelos are patrols not dens.

 

Other than the Uniform Inspection sheet which refers to the "Den Emblem", does anyone know if there is anything officially in writing that I can pass on to those who are in error?

[Cubmaster-Fred]

In the latest edition of the Cub Scout Leader Book, page 12-4 states:

 

"Webelos Dens may have a name and wear the appropriate "patrol" emblem instead of a den numeral, but they still must be referred to as dens not patrols".

 

I hope this clears this issue up.

 

Fred

[FScouter]

"...does anyone know if there is anything officially in writing that I can pass on to those who are in error?"

 

You could ask the same thing from those that incorrectly call a Webelo den a "patrol" or a denner a "patrol leader".

[anarchist]

Den/ patrol...what the heck difference does it make, really? The boys don't care...My webelos II den called themselves the Sharks...I don't believe I ever heard them once call themselves a patrol...though the SM occaisionally made that slip...does it really make a difference and if they do say patrol rather than den??? And what damage does it do? What kind of "Harm" can it possibly do???

 

Gosh, you know I always thought part of the webelos program was to transition them in to BOY SCOUTS...Transition (by definition) implies a transformation from "A" to "B" over some period of time. It seems wrong headed to insist that Webelos II dens/patrols are and can only act like cub scouts up until the last moment of cross-over then.. "TA DAH"... they are Boy Scouts? (even that conceppt would be incorrect...After all ...they aren't really Boy Scouts until they sign up, pay and are accepted by the CO and registered with Council)

 

Gosh no wonder units have Webelos to Boy Scout retention problems...culture shock and confusion. The guys need to start thinking about patrol methods and becoming boy scouts(IMHO) from at least their first day of Webelos II (if not even earlier). Thinking is not necessarily the same thing as being or doing...Thinking is the "starting" place...

 

My den functioned as a patrol, albeit with a lot more (as in constant) attention. I did not want them to hit Boy Scouts and wander around in a daze asking Mr.____ what should they do...wondering why the adults didn't "love them any more".

 

I wanted them to start understanding that older boys would be "there" for them on most matters; not necessarily adults. And they would be expected to take a bigger bite out of life as Boy Scouts...and were not just going along for the ride...

 

They learned to cook as a patrol, learned to clean-up as a patrol, and learned to start thinking more like boy scouts than like cubs. Rather than me doing everything for them...I guided them along...It was my master plan but they rotated "leadership roles" and got to practice running meetings, openings, planning meals and shopping. We camped a bit more than most cub groups...

 

I had a wonderful group of parents who were supportive and active in all phases of the webelos transition year...It was a great year in my scouting tenure...And most of my guys were still very active in scouting programs...six years later...so what really is the problem? Besides "words" that is?

 

Anarchist

[FScouter]

Den/ patrol...what the heck difference does it make, really?

 

It makes a tremendous amount of difference. The difference is that our national BSA organization of volunteers has worked many, many months developing a Webelos transition program. Dozens of volunteer Scout leaders from all over the country have participated in workshops, discussions, and meetings to come up with the perfect program. It has been tested on a trial basis in various parts of the country, then revised based on feedback from the field. Finally it gets published and distributed on a national basis. A transition program that works and is proven and endorsed by councils and Scouters from all over the country. This is a proven program that works.

 

Sure, Joe former den leader may have his own personal opinions. But who are you gonna go with ???

[Narraticong]

We had two Webelos 1 dens in our pack last year. Mine was the smaller one, but we gradually introduced the patrol method- using a denner,etc. The boys absolutely thrived on the increased independence. The self confidence levels grew tremendously. Our boys- the Panthers, were obviously comfortable in the outdoors.

 

Did they plan everything themselves? Certainly not. But with each project, they took on a little more responsibility. And isn't that a good definition of transition? They wore tan shirts. More transition.

 

By our Spring campout, the Panthers were leading songs and skits at the campfire. These were boys who were too shy the year before to even be heard. The boys in the other Webelos den obviously could see who the "leaders" of the Pack were!

 

At the end of the year the other Webelos leader dropped out, so the Panthers will absorb them. Believe me, they are more than eager! They all know they are headed toward Boy Scouts and at 10 years old, want a taste of what lies ahead. And that's what they get in a good transition. Do they camp outside in sub freezing weather? No. Will they stay in a cabin and go sledding. You betcha!

 

As we enter Webelos 2, we have the required badges for AOL done. From here on out, the boys will decide what badges we work on. The Assistant Den Leader and I will be at every meeting, but boys will run as much as possible- openings, flag ceremonies, uniform inspections.

 

Back in the stone age, we used to believe BSA was about building men. Some of us dinosaurs still do. So, Webelos can be seen as a transition from being children to becoming young men.

[fgoodwin]

Narraticong, welcome to the Forums!

[Jeffrey H]

"Back in the stone age, we used to believe BSA was about building men. Some of us dinosaurs still do."

Excellent point.  After all, character development and the 12 core values are a part of the Cub program.

 

[SSScout]

In the interim, don't forget the Webs are the example to the rest of the PACK. They may be eager to become full fledged Boy Scouts, but they are the Leaders of the Pack! Make sure they stay for the duration (and have opportunities to teach and demonstrate to the younger Cubs). Talk about role models, woo. When the Webs Bridge over too early, good for them, but bad for the Pack.

 

I also think it's neat that such an 'old' thread can still elicit good discussion.

 

YiS

[Jeffrey H]

"In the interim, don't forget the Webs are the example to the rest of the PACK. They may be eager to become full fledged Boy Scouts, but they are the Leaders of the Pack! Make sure they stay for the duration (and have opportunities to teach and demonstrate to the younger Cubs)."

 

Good thoughts and ideas, but it seems there is so much emphasis put on the Webelos to be Boy Scouts that we forget that they are still Cub Scouts.  In our Pack, the Webelos are so focused with their own den program and den campouts that they rarely come to Pack-wide outings and events.  They attend the monthly Pack meetings, but thats about it.  The younger Cubs never get to interact with them and never see them in action. 

  

How do you balance the two dynamics?  Webs are transitioning Boy Scouts, but they are still Cubs in the Pack.

 

 

 

When the Webs Bridge over too early, good for them, but bad for the Pack.

 

What about those Webs who turn 11 early in the fifth grade? (Sept or Oct?)  It seems to me that they need to crossover immediately as they have already aged out of Cubs and meet the age requirement for Boy Scouts.  Even if they did not want to crossover until the Spring, do they really have a choice?   

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Jeffrey,

 

To address your first point, I believe this is a matter of pack culture. I've seen packs where the webelos are off doing their own thing and others (usually stronger packs) where the webelos are thoroughly integrated. Mainly it seems to have to do with what's considered "normal" by the adults, although of course that assumes that the pack is scheduling activities that the webelos will still find exciting, and perhaps mixing things up so there's less of a "been there, done that" feeling among the older boys.

 

To address your second point, boys may stay in cub scouts through the end of 5th grade so yes, a webelos scout who turns 11 in Sept/Oct does have a choice and would not be forced to join a troop upon turning 11, if he wanted to stay with his den instead.

 

From the other side of the line, some troops prefer not to have boys crossing over at all sorts of different times of the year - makes it hard to have a coherent first year program. Other troops seem not to mind this. And it depends greatly on the boy in question and his maturity and preferences too.

 

Lisa'bob

 

Lisa'bob

[Narraticong]

Our Webelos Den is very active in Pack activities. They would never want to miss out on the activities. Pinewood Derby, trips to Scout Camp, etc.

 

In other words, if you are running a strong Pack program, they will come! You could also use your Webelos to help the younger boys with achievements and electives. Not all 10 year olds are ready, but some can really be a big help.

[Jeffrey H]

Lisabob & Narritacong,

 

Good ideas and thanks very much. A little background

 

We have an active Pack program that would not bore most 4th & 5th graders, but the problem is the culture our Pack has created for the Webelos. Over the years, theres been an unwritten rule that the Webelos are excused from most Pack activities/events because they are too busy with their get ready for Boy Scout stuff. Im not saying thats right, just the way its been. Well, thats changing this year because we are giving the Webelos more responsibilities at Pack meetings and Pack events. Were still going through a rebuilding program since the Pack went through 2 years of weak Cubmaster leadership with poor planning and poor preparation. We just finished our 1st year with a fun, enthusiastic, and VERY organized Cubmaster who wants to continue in his role for another 3 years. Things are looking positive.

 

We dont expect everything to change the first year because our Web 2 den leader is beholden to the old culture and not a big participant in Pack activities and not responsive to the requests of our Cubmaster. Our Web 1 leader, however, is very engaged with Pack activities and shows up for most events. The Web 1 leader will set the new precedent for Webelos in the Pack.

 

Webelos helping with younger Cubs is fine idea, but we just recruited some den chiefs to help out and we need to keep them busy.

 

Happy Cubbing,

Jeff