HELP! Can I get a National Tour Permit in 9 Days?

[MarkS]

I messed up and didn't realize I had to turn in a National Tour Permit request form 30 days before it was needed (yes, it's my first one and I won't make this mistake again). I really didn't have all the necessary information until last Friday but could have probably sent it sooner. Anyway, I turned in the request last Friday and my Council forwarded the request to National today. I now have 9 days before I need approval and my unit is off to an out-of-council summer camp.

 

Is there a way to contact National and get some help on this request. Maybe have the approvals faxed back instead of mailed? I'm also working this through my local Council but so far have been told it's out of their hands once they forward the request.

 

Another coup[le questions that come to mind (rhetorical ones), why do I need to send in paperwork? Why isn't there a webform on the National website I'm filling out to do this instead of needing a month? It's easy to have a general plan put together a month in advance, but the details on exactly who's cars we're taking and the exact number of boys committed to going can change in the last week before departure.

 

Thanks...

[Lisabob]

Mark, I believe it is the regional, not national, office that gets your tour permit once you've submitted it to council. I suppose you could contact them but I have no idea whether it will work for you.

 

As for online submission, we were told by our council that we HAD to submit it online. However, the online submission form has been down for quite some time, making this impossible.

 

Yes, it is a hassle of sorts to list all drivers and cars. On the other hand, as a parent, I want to know for sure that whoever is driving has the appropriate licensing and insurance. In the process of doing the national tour permit for our own unit, we discovered that this was NOT necessarily the case for a couple of people. Good to know... So while I understand and am sympathetic to your comment, I'm willing to put up with the inconvenience on this.

 

Good luck to you!

[EagleInKY]

I had the same thing happen back in February. I went in and through myself on the mercy of our tour permit czar. She expedited it for me and I had it in a few days.

[MarkS]

Lisa,

 

I agree. As a parent, I would want to ensure that the drivers have the appropriate licensing and insurance. I just don't think the process should take at least a month.

 

Besides, the National Tour Permit doesn't ask for a list of drivers to verify that they all have the appropriate licensing and insurance. It says that it is required but only asks for a list of cars being used on the trip and whether the car owners are licensed and insured. The form itself doesn't preclude the possibility of someone lending a car to the troop. However, I suspect that would fall out and the permit denied if all car owners don't show up on the list of adults going on the trip. A webform would be able to reject this scenario immediately and allow a much more timely resubmittal that's compliant with the rules.

 

If you think about it, if there's a chance your plan could be rejected by National, you should be submitting the form two months in advance so you have time to put the required corrections in. However, I'm not speaking from experience. Just assuming that a resubmittal takes as long as a submittal.

 

Also, my Council said they're sending it to National but I suppose they could mean Regional.

 

EagleInKY,

 

Our local Council tour permit czar said she'd put a note on my application asking that it be expedited. However, she hasn't received it yet (it's in interoffice mail somewhere and I'm sweating bullets). She said she'd likely see it tomorrow and get it out for me. So the folks at my council are doing everything they can, I just wish it could be done via fax rather than snail mail.

 

Mark(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[Lisabob]

Besides, the National Tour Permit doesn't ask for a list of drivers to verify that they all have the appropriate licensing and insurance.

 

Mark, I'm confused. Here's a link to the form we use. On page 2 it does require that we list drivers with license #s, cars (with detailed info), and insurance. Did you not have to do that?

 

http://www.scouting.org/forms/4419.pdf

[John-in-KC]

The approving authority for National Tour Permits is, indeed, the BSA Regional HQ Offices.

 

Call your DE. Do it now. Ask for his assistance. As EagleinKY said, it can be done, but you have to pony up your very best effort, and admit you goofed on timing.

 

As to WHY of a tour permit, IT'S A PLANNING PROCESS... if you take your time and do it right, and follow the procedures in Tours and Expeditions, BSA Pub 33737D, you will find you dot the i's and cross the t's.

 

Serious question: What's your "Plan B?"

[scottteng]

Should the council in question with whom this troop has had reservations for some time have some responsibility in this matter. God knows they pick every other piece of paperwork to death. Maybe along the lines of you know you yahoos from east anywhere will need a National tour permit to visit our famous camp beyond the limit. A general failure to communicate. Hope all works out for the best. When all else fails have a good time and do the paperwork later. Maybe they will believe you when you say "you mean I need a tour permit to go to a BSA summer camp?" As far as online well they say this paperwork is so important that they need actual signatures on all tour permits. The whole thing is kind of overkill but then something tragic happens and reminds all of us why the overkill has been put into place.

[John-in-KC]

"When all else fails have a good time and do the paperwork later. Maybe they will believe you when you say "you mean I need a tour permit to go to a BSA summer camp?"

 

A Scout is Trustworthy.

 

A Scout is Obedient.

 

I have only rarely been sickened more by the attitude of some Scouters. Granted, 99% of the time, nothing is going to happen. It's the 1%.

 

The following is a fictional "what happened:"

If something does happen, the lawyers will be all over this, and BSA and the local Council will pay out the nose, protecting the chartered partner and the Scouters involved. Why? Because it's blindingly obvious: The unit knew its duty and conciously failed to comply. Any just out of law school wet behind the ears just passed his Bar exam 25 year old would ask in a deposition session: "Is there a process used by BSA, your Council, and the Troop to plan trips? Did you follow it? Did you ask about it?..."

 

As Beavah tells us, Scoutings pockets will cover... but the Health and Safety folks would have every right to lay down Draconian rules upon Councils and units... including rejecting late permit requests out of hand.

 

As Beavah says in the post below, Mark is doing the right thing by working this close and dynamically!!! My point is this: If someone deliberately blows off procedure, and it costs BSA $,$$$,$$$ from their liability insurance, we can lose the opportunity of "oops, I goofed" in getting National Tour Permits.

 

If there were an accident, yes, Scouting should cover, but then the Scouters concerned should imo be removed from Scouting.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Beavah]

Yah, MarkS. These things happen, eh?

 

Da folks at Regional see it all the time. They'll be friendly and helpful, and give you only a mild chiding for which you should act appropriately sheepish. Check with your DE or council person who handles tour permits. Be apologetic. They'll help you out, no problem. All that's really needed is a call to Regional to have 'em pull it out of the bottom of the pile. Faxing back is also no problem.

 

As for your other questions, it's not necessary to be perfectly accurate about your numbers count when you submit a tour permit. I doubt half of 'em have exactly the same number as the people that go. Everyone understands there will be changes. Same with cars. A common thing to do around here is just to get all the driving information for a whole troop and staple it on, sayin' "it will be some combination of the following". The point is just to show you're doin' your due diligence in terms of makin' sure people are licensed and have insurance, that you have enough seatbelts, etc.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[MarkS]

Lisabob,

 

Look at pages 1 and 2. If you look at the TRANSPORTATION section (6a) on page 1, it lists the driver qualification requirements. If you look at the INSURANCE section (the table), you're supposed to list the vehicles you're using, the owners of the vehicles, and the drivers license number of the owners of the vehicles. You're not required to list all of the drivers who may be driving the vehicles.

 

The GSS sez... "Driving time is limited to a maximum of 10 hours and must be interrupted by frequent rest, food, and recreation stops. If there is only one driver, the driving time should be reduced and stops should be made more frequently." so it's conceivable that someone besides the car owner could be driving the vehicle. Therefore the list of drivers is not the same as the list of owners or the owner may not even be driving his own vehicle.

 

Although I'll admit I didn't have a chance to read BSA publication No. 33737D on Tours and Expeditions before filling out the form so I don't know if it provides instructions for completing the form that would change my interpretation.

 

Anyway, that's what I was talking about.

 

Beavah,

 

Hopefully, for me, this will only happen once. I'm really good at learning from my mistakes. As I said, my first NTP and with our recharter, I've only recently took over handling Activity Coordination. The plans for Summer Camp were put together before my tenure, everything was done except for identifying overnight lodging on the return trip which took some time to nail down and filling out the form, and I let the darn thing slip through the crack.

 

John-in-KC, et al,

 

I don't have an issue with the process or paperwork required or putting together a good plan. It just seems to me that lead-time needed to get the application approved is excessive and can be improved by allowing units to do it online. I'm not sure if the council needs to do that or if it's regional or national, etc. I'm also not sure why the council and regional/national approvals need to be done in serial vs. parallel that an online capability would permit. I expect in time, this may be the case as with some of the online training provided via the OLC.

 

As far as signatures are concerned. Users of an online permit application system could be required to register and obtained electronic signature certificates. There are ways of verifying the name on the form matches the person at the other end of the computer. Alas, this stuff takes time and money.

 

In the meantime, I'm not complaining to my council but am asking for forgiveness and help.

 

Mark(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[John-in-KC]

Mark,

 

Learning from our own mistakes is good.

 

Learning form someone elses' mistakes is even better... much less pain.

 

That's one of the reasons I post here. I get to learn, I get to share.

 

Please, do let us know when the NTP comes back, and let us know how things went afterward.

 

Have fun on this May the youth have fun and learn something too

[MarkS]

Well, my council got it out today. Now I need a whip up a batch of Dutch Oven Humble Cobbler to give them as a thanks. ;-)(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[scottteng]

Congrats the staff has bailed you out. Take along a thank you card and have all your troop sign it and enclose some pics of your summer camp experience like the ones going in the troop scrapbook and send it to them. Never pass up the opportunity to show the office personnel the "why" they do the stuff they do.

I still have a bone to pick with the camp director that did not let you know in no uncertain terms that he wanted a copy of said permit in his hands along with his final payment.

[moxieman]

MarkS, I'm sure you'll get it back in time and a little food 'bribery' in thanks doesn't hurt.

 

Once you get your permit back make enough copies so that every driver has one.

 

Provided, you aren't crossing any international borders as my old unit did regularly (into Canada), but it doesn't hurt to have a copy in each car. In our case, we had gone on the same trip every year into New Brunswick from Maine. One year, the border guard actually asked to see our tour permit from each driver in our group. Fortunately, we had made copies for each driver along with our invitation letter from the local Scouts Canada District folks.

[Kudu]

Is the camp really more than 500 miles away?

 

Kudu