Weak and Poor Eagle scouts....Whats the fix???

[Basementdweller 608]

We see lots of folks bemoaning that the Eagle is to easy...

 

We see a few whining it is too hard.....

 

Is that some Eagles are earned so easily that it cheapens the rank????

 

Poor attendance, No real leadership roll in the troop,

 

 

So what would it take to return it to what many Remember or think it should be????

[Lisabob 13]

I don't think I have the answer. But my son just finished his Eagle project yesterday. He'll age out in under a month and should (fingers crossed) earn Eagle as one of those sometimes-dreaded "death bed" candidates - literally. He'll complete the tenure in Life rank requirement a day before turning 18. Along the way he has served as PL numerous times, SPL for a year, currently Troop Instructor for the NSPs, and is now just mopping up a small handful of remaining merit badge requirements. He did NYLT and is in OA, though not really active in OA. In his 7 1/2 years in boy scouts, he's been to countless troop, patrol, and PLC meetings, camped a bajillion nights, gone to summer camp 6 times (at a different camp each year) and attended one national jambo. He's on his way to his last boy scout summer camp next week and can't wait to go. Then he'll finish out his time in boy scouts with a week-long backpacking trip in Canada with his venture crew, almost all of whom are also current/former troop members (plus a couple of sisters and female friends). So I think he's been plenty "active" by anybody's definition, although it took him close to 3 years to earn 1st Cl, another to earn Star and about 3 more to earn Life.

 

He still isn't very good with knots and lashings. But he's gotten a great deal out of the rest of the program and will be a better man, for having done so. And as his parent and a scouter myself, I must say, seeing him go through the Eagle project process, I'm really impressed with how much planning and leadership a boy must show to get through that process. I've been around boy scouting for close to a decade, have sat on various Eagle boards, etc., but watching my own son go through it gives me a new appreciation for the process.

 

So for me today, the bottom line is: If a boy actually meets the current standards, he has done plenty. And thus it seems like the answer is probably "hold each boy to the current standard, as written" rather than "rewrite the standards."

 

 

 

 

[Tokala 16]

I'm not sure what the fix is, but maybe allowing folks to hold back Scouts after a BoR or SM conference rather than passing them along to be spared the wrath of a parent.

 

I just spent this past weekend at our camp with the OA lodge. It's the weekend we set camp for summer camp. I had about 16 First Class Scouts with me to set up wall tents. We were replacing all of the ropes. Before starting I asked everyone who knew how to tie a bowline and tautline to raise their hand. One Scout raised his hand. That illustrated the issue with advancing kids without making them learn the skill. I think culturally we have trained kids to study for a test and not to actually absorb klnowledge.

[bnelon44 17]

>I'm not sure what the fix is, but maybe allowing folks to hold back Scouts after a BoR or SM conference rather than passing them along to be spared the wrath of a parent.

 

 

The issue here is them being signed off before mastering the skill and the troop not reinforcing the training. The BOR and SM conference are not the right places to test. Testing should have been done adequately earlier on.

[resqman 108]

Is the rank of Eagle designating the person as the next world class wilderness guru or the next world leader?

 

I think there is a a dicotomy between what people both inside and outside of scouting believe an Eagle Scout is or is not. Discussion on these forums often centers around boy leadership, taking responsibility and similar topics. Ethics and morality occasionally are debated. For lack of better term, technical outdoor skills are presumed to be learned and practiced through an ongoing outdoor program.

 

I have 2 sons. One started as a wolf and lacks his project to complete the rank of Eagle. The other started at age 15 and "Eagled" in 3 yrs while playing sports on both the school and league teams. The one son is in scouting for the fun and enjoyment. He is an exceptional outdoorsman, with good knot & lashing, first aid, cooking, camping, and leadership skills. He will earn Eagle in time but it is not and has not been the driving force for him to be in scouting. I feel confident that he would meet the standards of almost anyone for an Eagle Scout.

 

The other son had little interest in the outdoors and scouting. He was an athelete first and foremost. He came to the program late and worked the program with a vengenance with a goal in mind... rank of Eagle. Prior to his actual EBOR he felt that Scouts was for losers and geeks. His response a week after his EBOR was he was going to require his kids to join scouting. His time in scouting was very different from his brothers. He meets other Eagle scouts everywhere he goes and is truely proud of his accomplishment.

 

Both sons will complete the same requirements in the same troop and come from the same household. Both are totally different Eagle Scouts with totally different skills and strengths. The journey was equally difficult for each boy.

 

The fix is to change the adult leadership. Hold the scouts in your troops to a standard. Have skills checks days or weeks after the skill is taught. Dont sign off unless they can actually perform the skill. Incorporate the skills into the program, not just as add ons but as the core of the program. Failure IS an option. Make sure they understand that they are expected to know the skills and continue to know the skills and they will happily make you proud of their progress.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Some troops are designed to be Eagle mills, to get the maximum number of boys to Eagle in the minimum time and perhaps with a minimum of effort. They are designed that way by adults for adult reasons and purposes.

 

I don't think there is a lot you are going to do about that, nor am I especially concerned about it.

 

Those who want a more demanding program can usually find it --- that's the important thing to me.

 

 

[BadenP 93]

 

 

The first step is to replace all those "weak" SM's who are providing a substandard program in the first place, and have been doing so for a number of years. The quality of an Eagle scout equates to the quality of the troop leadership and the quality of the program he is receiving. Signing off requirements when those same troop leaders know the boy has not learned them properly/correctly in the first place, but approve a substandard effort anyway.

[Horizon 97]

First make sure that we really do have a problem. Everyone likes to talk about the occasional Scout who slips through, but do we really know how many of these there are? I would hate to implement a solution in search of a non-existent or very small problem.

 

After that, we have to decide what it is we want the Eagle to stand for. I know what we find in the books, but are we looking for the perfect wilderness Scout like Baden Powell wanted? Are we trying to create fully self sufficient woodsmen? Is it the citizenship issues we want covered? The next generation of the Knights Templar?

 

Skills: Personally, I would go for the Game with a Purpose and the Outing is 3/4 of Scouting for a starting point and work from there. Lets take outdoor skills - our district has a decent Camporee that is all about traditional Scout Skill competitions, with the top 3 patrols in the District honored for each event (shelter building, lashings, flag-pole raising, map & compass, knot tying, first aid knowledge and relay, etc.). This is the first week of April, and our patrols work furiously to get the newly bridged members of their patrols up to speed on the skills. I would say that we do a pretty good job with the basic skills of Scouting from the Trail to First Class.

 

POR: So lets talk responsibility and leadership (The POR). These could use some cleaning up I think. Perhaps certain positions should only count for Star, then fewer for Life, and a limited number for Eagle. I am biased towards the Leadership positions I admit - Patrol Leader, SPL, ASPL if done right, and Quartermaster. JASM we only use for our Eagles.

 

Merit Badges part one: I would bring back Cooking as required, and also add Backpacking to the list. Maybe create some interesting recognition for certain badge collections for the outdoors skills. My son went for all of the weapons badges as he called them (archery, shotgun, rifle). He also went for all water badges (sailing, rowing, canoeing and SCUBA along with Swimming and Lifesaving). Maybe we need a recognition for the Scout that earns all outdoor merit badges - just to give some of the boys something to target.

 

Camping nights. My Troop as a boy had special patches for never missing a campout over 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 years (they might have added a 6th while I was gone). They certainly recognized the goal of getting us all outdoors. This lead to great participation by youth, a ton of adult leaders, and an advancement path that was never hindered by a lack of opportunity.

[CalicoPenn 729]

First, take all the rank requirements and write them on a big scoll without writing down the ranks - write them all down in one place. Then write down all the requirements of the required merit badges (you choose which ones you want to include when there is a choice) without writing down the names of the merit badges. Next, randomly choose enough merit badges to fill out the electives (put the names in a hat and choose by lot, or eeny-meeny-miny-moe them or whatever - but make it random (though you can probably make Basketry one of them since it seems almost everyone earns that one at summer camp) then write down all the requirements of those merit badges without writing down the names of the merit badges.

 

Once your done with that, make sure you add "meet with adults in a BOR 6 times and the Scoutmaster 6 times" then stand back and look at the list.

 

Then come back and tell us that Eagle is too easy.

 

 

[fred8033 1593]

Our troop has had eleven eagle scouts in the last eight years. Way more then we've ever had before. But it's because the troop geared up the program and we had two groups of scouts that were really good friends and inspired each other. Only one scout was close to being borderline on activities or other requirements. And then that scout went on to be a great troop guide for another year. All the other scouts far exceeded any minimum Eagle standard.

 

Between merit badge and rank requirements, there are about 280 check points to earn Eagle. I agree with BadenP when he wrote the issue is that "Signing off requirements when those same troop leaders know the boy has not learned them properly/correctly in the first place, but approve a substandard effort anyway."

 

You could add more requirements, but that won't help weak programs. But it would make Eagle really hard in troops that deliver a strong program.

 

If there is something to be addressed, it's focusing on improving the testing. Perhaps, it means waiting time between learning and testing. Perhaps it means examination boards or similar. I really don't know. And I'm not sure if I'd rally like a change. But if there is a place to improve advancement ... it's at the testing step.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[packsaddle 753]

When you look at how the requirements have changed again and again over the years, I see no evidence to reject the idea that scouters are and always have been - a bunch of malcontents with regard to rank requirements.

[Oak Tree 15]

It depends on what you mean by "poor Eagle Scouts."

 

If you mean that they haven't generally mastered the outdoor skills, I think the answer to that would be to change the advancement requirements to require more mastery. Expecting leaders to require more mastery just based on the current requirements is not going to happen.

 

If you want Scouts to have more of a Scouting presence, then add some attendance requirements. Sea Scouts does, for example. Require the ownership of a uniform. Require it to be correct for the Eagle BOR.

 

If you want them to clearly have done more in the outdoors, then bump up the Camping merit badge requirement. It used to require 50 nights of camping. Now it's 20.

 

If you want to require a higher standard of leadership or morals, well, good luck. It's very difficult to describe a consistent standard for this. You could do something like OA, I guess. Require someone to get a 50% vote of the Scouts in the unit as deserving Eagle. Not that that could ever cause any problems....

 

At a minimum, though, you could let units set their own standards for some of these things and enforce them. At least some of the Eagles would be held to a higher standard.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

What's the fix? Follow the program and mean what you say. After a scout ties his timber hitch for advancement he continually is placed in situations where he will use that knot, and all the others. Nobody keeps a skill, especially a pyschomotor one without use. As the Scoutmaster is the overseer of the Program, he/she has to be sure the elements of the program are represente on all/most? activities. I can see some No Skills weekends but those should be the exception, not the rule

 

If the POR says do something, then it gets done or the scout does not get creditr for the POR, he gets "fired" coached up and is given an opportunity to suceed, but when he succeeds its because he did the work

 

Now, I think veteran posters know I am a proponnent of the First CLass First Year Program but first and always the scout has to know the skill and uses it constantly. WHen that occurs, there is no question about skill retention

[JMHawkins 15]

If you want to require a higher standard of leadership or morals, well, good luck. It's very difficult to describe a consistent standard for this. You could do something like OA, I guess. Require someone to get a 50% vote of the Scouts in the unit as deserving Eagle. Not that that could ever cause any problems....

 

For leadership, in another thread I suggested limiting the PORs that qualify for Eagle to the actual leadership positions (PL/APL, SPL/ASPL, TG, JASM). That would be a start. I also think you could require a "vote of confidence" after the term is up from the scouts under his leadership for the position to count. While there may be problems, honestly a PL isn't supposed to be Drill Instructor. Being a friend to every scout in his Patrol is one of his jobs. There should be some sort of evaluation after he has done the job to deterime if he did it well enough to get credit.

 

Or maybe it's something like the Quartermaster cruise Eagle92 mentioned, being the guy in charge for an outdoor adventure that requires leadership skills to pull off.

 

 

Morals are indeed always going to be hard because you can't boil them down to a checklist that avoids anyone making a judgement. Morality is always a subjective call. Then again, we ought to at least allow the SM to make that call. Really, if we don't trust the SM to give a fair and honest evaluation of a youth, why is he the SM? He's supposed to be the most visible adult setting an example of living the Scout Law, but we don't trust him to actually make a judgement call when a judgement call is needed.

 

 

[qwazse 4346]

Follow the program and mean what you say. After a scout ties his timber hitch for advancement he continually is placed in situations where he will use that knot, and all the others.

 

Ban all Velcro, web straps, tie-downs,ratchets, and bungee chords.

 

Here's the deal, you will always have scouts that get by with the minimum, whatever standard you set. A boy may look sharp from T to L, then something happens at 16 (diesel or per- fumes maybe) and he's just skating by. You wonder if the program is broken when he gets his bird and then disappears.

 

Thing is a few years later that kid shows up a hero somewhere, while "Mr. Perfect Example" is a self-absorbed slacker. It's like a box of chocolates ... You can only take an educated guess about what's inside.

 

Leave the requirements alone. Changing them won't make a better Eagle. Be the guy's friend once he turns 18. That's what will give him strength and wealth.