Beavah 205 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yeh missed reading da original poster's message, where he had a link to a draft copy of da new workbook. The new version is not on scouting.org yet, so you downloaded the old one. While I agree that a number of districts, councils, and individuals went hog-wild on da Eagle Project proposals and it needed to be trimmed, I (as usual) disagree with da "don't change one dot or tiddle" paint-by-numbers approach. We want boys to learn real skills, like how to take an example or template and use da appropriate pieces of it to build their own argument or plan. Having them use a one-time-only proprietary BSA app for planning/reporting doesn't teach 'em a useful skill. That lack of utility is just goin' to cause most boys and units to do what they do now, and just ignore da workbook, building their plan in Word and Excel and writing "see attached" on every page of the proprietary form. Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 SSScout is correct I did not notice before the link bnelon44 posted is one from a specific Troop Website.. I guess I can't force my husband to crack the whip until it is at least on some Official National Website in either fillable or unfillable form.. PChadbo.. You don't think I can get my husband to march?? I just need to swap out his "happy, friendly & cooperative" pills for the "mean, grumpy & crabby" ones for the day.. In other words swap my pills for his and then he will be ready to give marching orders too.. Sounds too like this passage was just added, if it wasn't in the old one.. So I guess they were within their rights to alter it until this new book comes into being.. Therefore, I guess the message can be toned down to a "Hey, Guys.. No more Council altered workbook.." Rather then "HEY.. SMUCKKA HEADS !!! ".... My husband can do informative in a nice, friendly, happy way.. And will not need to be pumped up on steroids for the delivery.. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yah, easy there moosetracker! Helpful, Friendly and Kind! . No fair usin' grumpy pills. I don't know how in da organization we get so many anal-retentive types at da district level in so many places. It can be a bit frustratin'. Da thing of it is, while maybe this will help break up a logjam in a few places, it really carries its own poison. Yeh can see da same folks rejecting a boy's excellent proposal because he couldn't fit what he wanted to on the form and submitted it as a Word document, or rejecting a boy's proposal because there was a line on da form that didn't apply to his project which he didn't fill out. Any of us doin' this work for long enough have seen such things. And, too, there often are some legitimate local issues boys need to be aware of, eh? Da form and process for a solicitation permit in a town that demands one of everybody. Specific instructions on contacts or processes requested by the town park for Eagle Projects. Information on the council's policies with respect to Tour Plans and Fundraising. The notion that one-size-fits-all for an entire nation is ludicrous on its face. Yeh handle da logjams with good instructions and occasional well-placed use of dynamite, eh? . Not by allowing only one boat on da river. Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
SSScout 1615 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Okay. Sorry for the mireading. I thought the newest version was already online, hence the friday notice I noticed. Okay, I will tear this one up and Scoutson will use the one Council provided. Thanks, B. Could use a revision date on it, none the less. Link to post Share on other sites
bnelon44 17 Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 The revision date for the new workbook is at the end of the workbook Link to post Share on other sites
MoosetheItalianBlacksmith 13 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I was only saying from what you read to me both me and my fianc both said it sounded the same as the old on......when dad said council had its own it was news to me (cause I kind of dont think they do the one sent to us is the same one we pull off line). He said the council one was exactly the same with more information so that it was easier to understand though....so even if there is a council one its the same thing. Also the head of the Eagle board does not review application requirements to determine the legitimacy of a project....he looks at the section referring to eagle projection in the advancement guide or whatever its called and thats the booklet he pulled out on Sunday night and actually read out of to explain why the project was not going to be approved. You can say all the words you like though....some things will not change nor do I think they necessarily should....councils will make minor adjustments as they see fit to things. Such as the Guideline of 100 hours for an eagle project....a lot of councils and districts use that as a standard to make sure the same amount of work is going into projects or some people are going above and beyond....and with that amount of time there is ample opportunity to show leadership yet its not so much time that its unreasonable. But technically there is no minimum time limit on eagle projects and we all know this. There are lots of examples of council and district alterations that no matter how many words you use in an application wont change. Link to post Share on other sites
bnelon44 17 Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 There is no minimum number of hours for a project. 100 hours or any other. There never has been. This is made very clear in the new Guide to Advancement. If your council has a minimum set of hours, they are adding to requirements, and they cannot do that. They never were able to add to requirements. You can look in the current Advancement Committee Policies and Proceedures or the new Guide to Advancement ... or if you want look in the 1936 Handbook for Scoutmasters. Or the 1911 Handbook for Boy Scouts. Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Yeah, I have told them that bnelon44.. Although there are things they can use "by the book" to weigh if the project is worthy.. ..Service, impact, and leadership are the objectives and measurements. Use these as your criteria to consider, select, develop, and evaluate your project... ...Attention: Unit, District, and Council Reviewers Eagle Scout projects must be evaluated primarily on impact: the extent of benefit to the religious institution, school, or community, and on the leadership provided by the candidate. There must also be evidence of planning and development... I know from what they talk about, they have had to discuss with the canidate ideas on what was needed to be added to a project in order to obtain enough leadership.. Enough Leadership is still left up to the board to interpret, and has been handed to them a a tool for measurement.. Now you can't stop these guys from mentally doing their approximation of on average 100 hours will show enough leadership.. Since the 100 hours is not what the boy puts in, but the combined hours of all the people who are helping him, The project could be 4 hours in length with 20 volunteers at the project, and a given extra 20 hours with planning and gathering materials, but the boy only personnally spends 6 hours because he has his mother driving him, he is working with his Eagle project counsilor with mom having driven him & waiting, He is working with someone for donations with mom having driven him and waiting, He is discussing details with the people he is doing the project for, with mom having driven him and waiting.. And all of their time is counted for the 20 hours.. So in total the scout only works on the project for 10 hours, but it is a 100 hour project.. Honestly if the scout truely marks all the time all the people around him give to help him with his project 100 hours is easy to rack up.. Problem is the scouts I see still take some time people give to him to help him for granted, and never mark it down.. We had one kid state at the projects conclusion that the project only racked up 50 hours. Our 100 hour board still gave it to him, because one of the board members went to the project and knew it was a worthy project.. But I gave him a tongue lashing because it was easily 200+ hours, he just took the time that others donated to the cause for granted.. I do think they will buawk at the piece that says leading 2 people shows enough leadership.. "Yeah I'm doing a project with my Mommy and Daddy, for about 2 hours of picking up garbage.." But MIB.. Adding to the workbook is adding to the workbook, you might think it is just defining what was meant, but it is your interpretation of what is meant.. Or you are adding on what you think should be there and assume to be an oversight. (I am curious if the council approved workbook has the 100 hour approximation.. It may not if that is an interpretion of our district rather then the council.) I think our Council/District is pretty reasonable, but there are horror stories of other council/Districts have "interpreted" the workbook in such a way that the boys spend months just rewriting and rewriting their proposals and end up with a master thesis before the end.. The council has a right to tighten up safty measures they think are not clear (like how many parents/guardians should be in attendance for a Pack campout), or not strict enough, they are allowed the right to make the training more difficult (such as not allowing testing out of IOLS).. But, the one thing that has always been set in stone, not to be added or subtracted from is the advancement. Now as for interpretation.. The words in the workbook/merit badge should be left alone, and allow different people to interpret as they will, then the there can be a healthy debate between the people on the subject.. MIB - I truely think our board should stop calculating the 100 hours, because the book says in black & white that you can not.. Start calculating if the project shows enough leadership.. Now how you mentally calculate that is up to you. But, verbally to the scout it should be the concesses of the board, that the project does not show enough leadership.. Link to post Share on other sites
MoosetheItalianBlacksmith 13 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 As I said before I know that is not a rule and our board knows its not a rule.but go to other eagle boardsthey will all have their own small rules and benchmarks in place. 100 hours is extremely common. So yes we all know its not a rule and their not supposed to add anything but no matter how many times you say that or to who.its still going to happen and in some cases it should. Our board is actually the most lenient and easiest in the council from what I hear about the districts. We dont let them get away with junk but we dont make obnoxious rule for them to try and work around. When we tell a boy we are looking for 100 hours we also tell them its not a rule its more of a guideline for us to see that you have the chance to put the leadership in.and on multiple occasions we have approved people whose projects came in under that if we felt there was enough to it. We count all hours including hours on the phone or any hours spent on the project setting it up in order to be approved by the board in the first place. Which makes 100 hours really really easy to get. Mother.as I said before I have not ever heard of this council workbook until dad mentioned it the other day. Nor have I ever seen one. I was just going off of what he said. I honestly think he is mistaken in that fact. Also I dont care if the workbook says it.our board will never allow the leadership to just be over 2 people.cause what our district is big on is not the hours or the money or anything except that they are showing leader ship. It is huge to our district and I believe that is the right way to go about it because it is an EAGLE project to show LEADERSHIP. For those that may get confused we look at 100 hours but it is not mandatory for us and very rarely does somebody come to the board with a project that will take less then that.if they do we hear everything out and if they are showing enough leadership we pass it and let it go..if we dont feel there is enough leadership we have the boy do a little more work such as an extra fundraiser. It is really just a guide for us..what we are actually looking for it the amount of LEADERSHIP he is going to be showing. Our Eagle board chair does use the Guide to advancement for all other aspects of the eagle project. Such as who it should benefit ect ect. Link to post Share on other sites
bnelon44 17 Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 It isn't optional. The policies surrounding the Eagle project specified in the GTA are policies. They can't take what is in the GTA and then modify it to suit their impression of what an Eagle project should be based on any preconceived ideas or arbitrary rules they make up either as tradition or on the spur of the moment. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 "Also I dont care if the workbook says it" ah youth, I am right irregardless of what the governing body says. This sediment is exactly why national had to spell it out. Guess what, he will appeal to national get his eagle and be on the evening news telling the reporter how YOU singled him out by adding requirements. Link to post Share on other sites
stlscouter 10 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Baden said that Scouting is a game...and it's a youth run organization...Is this "new" workbook some young man's Eagle project? Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 You know it is hard having a debate on this board with your own son calling you out.. bnelon - True, but still in the workbook states that the project must show enough Leadership and impact to be deemed worthy.. Which leaves the board still in charge of coming to a consensus as to if a project put before them does show enough Leadership and impact to be worthy.. Truely.. if a scout came to you with the project of going to a park with Mommy & Daddy to pick up garbage for 2 hours.. Would you consider this a worthy enough Eagle project?.. It has the 2 extra volunteers other then the scout.. Hours don't count.. But does this show enough leadership? Why? What would be your critera for whether or not it shows enough Leadership?.. Does this project have enough impact for the reciepient? Why? What would be your critera for whether or not is has enough impact.. Now you may tell the scout the project is denied due to not showing enough Leadership or enough impact.. The workbook states the board can reject a project based on lack of those items.. But, there was something in your mind, some sort of expected level or threshold, some sort of internal measurement you used in coming to that determination. It may not be the 100 hour rule, but there is something.. From what I know our board did accept one project with the main bulk of the project being the scout, the father and someone who knew how to construct some sort of BBQ for the church (I think brick & mortar was involved, so the guy was probably a mason).. But the board added to the project a community BBQ where the scout hosted the BBQ and promoted it, and organized the people to cook and serve and clean-up.. Because the project alone showed not enough leadership.. There was some doubt as to who would really be leading the construction of the BBQ, between a father and a guy who built them for a living being the only other two volunteers. That the board has some sort of collective idea about what constitutes enough leadership is fine by me.. If in part they use the 100 hour rule is ok if they do allow circumstances that the rule can be over-ridden due to other items showing that enough leadership & impact is being met without it. That means it is a guideline, and not a rule.. I am sure a similar guideline is mentally used to figure out if a project might be too cumbersome for a scout.. I don't know if our board has ever denied a scout, but I know they issue a warning to them, and ask them to rethink it and figure out if they can take on only a portion leaving other pieces to future projects.. I think I was taken back when that one scout did complete the project and stated he came in under 100 hours and someone on the board stated that the project failed due to it not meeting the 100 hours. To their credit though the head of the Eagle board stood up for the project being worthwhile and worthy without the 100 hour timeline.. I guess I always knew hours was a guideline they used for accepting a project, but I was surprised someone thought to reject a completed project due to hours.. But to truth this was the one and only time I have ever heard the board raising the issue on a completed project, the person who raised the issue might have been new and overly zealous, or a visitor.. Which they do invite visitors on the board to get a feel for what the board is all about and take the knowledge back to their troops.(This message has been edited by moosetracker) Link to post Share on other sites
bnelon44 17 Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 moosetracker, Best to stick with what the policy says and ignore any previous 100 hour "guideline" that people on EBORs take as gospel. Link to post Share on other sites
bnelon44 17 Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 stlscouter, Baden-Powell had little to nothing to do with the founding or development of the BSA. But that is a topic for a different thread. Link to post Share on other sites
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