Can a unit CHOOSE to ignore / not award a given advancement ?

[DeanRx]

I know it is specifically stated that a unit or leader cannot add or delete from requirements.

 

However, can a unit choose to not recognize a given award that is outlined at BSA national?

 

I am thinking specifically of the "Video Games" belt loop (and a couple other of the 'new' belt loops in the program). I personally (as do the majority of our unit committee) think this belt loop is absolute B.S. on the part of the BSA. I cringe when a scout finds out about it and wants to earn it.

 

Now, I know LDS units are permitted to "tweek" the program to fit their specific needs. Does this mean that a local unit can make adjustments to program, or at least choose not to recognize a given award that is part of the national program?

[Mike F]

DeanRx,

 

You may decide not to promote it or include it in program in any way, but if a scout earns it, it absolutely should be awarded to him. If you decide to withhold it, at the same time you are required to tell him his options for appeal to the District Advancement Chair. If they press, you will lose and draw into question the methods you are using in your unit. It's not worth it. Give the kid his belt loop. Maybe after he gets that one, he'll be inspired to add more.

[moosetracker]

I know of Cub Scout units that limit all the belt loops & pins that can be earned multiple times at every rank to paying for the belt loop/pin only once, after that it is not awarded, or the parent pays for it. But this is an across the board decision based on the monetary concerns. I have never heard of a parent argueing about it, because if they did & won, they would be forced to go out & sell more popcorn or other fundraisers for it.

 

I don't think you can deny 1 or two awards, based on personal preference. Nor do I think you can decide to pay for awards A, B & C.. But force the parent to pay for the awards you disagree with.

 

That would be like picking & choosing the merit badges the boys in your troop could earn.. For instance you could dislike reading, graphic Arts, and Computers, because you are sitting inside and not out and about in the outdoors.. You can not tell a boy he can not earn those merit badges, based on your dislike for them..

 

I do feel your pain though, the video game is a silly one..

 

[OwntheNight]

I get the limiting the number of belt loops and academic pins awarded because of the over zealous parent who wants their boy to get everything possible, or the financial strain that belt loops and pins create for packs. But why would you want to be selective in what the boys can or can't earn based upon your feelings?

I'm not trying to be confrontational about this, but if I may, can I play devil's advocate?

The committee votes to not allow this belt loop to be earned, a parent gets upset and begins to question the committee about why beltloop "A" is not allowed to be earned, but beltloop "B" can be earned, and the parent is opposed to beltloop "B" for whatever reason. Now a situation is created with one parent who is upset and begins telling other parents about the unfairness of this.Which creates tension in the pack. The committee is then put in the unenviable position of having to vote for an all or none in regards to belt loops. Is this really the best use of the committee?

 

Video Games Belt Loop do all

1. Explain why it is important to have a rating system for video games. Check your video games to be sure they are right for your age.

2. With an adult, create a schedule for you to do things that includes your chores, homework, and video gaming. Do your best to follow this schedule. 3. Learn to play a new video game that is approved by your parent, guardian, or teacher.

Video Games Academic Pin Earn belt loop and do any 5

1. With your parents, create a plan to buy a video game that is right for your age group.

2. Compare two game systems (for example, Microsoft Xbox, Sony PlayStation, Nintendo Wii, and so on). Explain some of the differences between the two. List good reasons to purchase or use a game system.

3. Play a video game with family members in a family tournament. 4. Teach an adult or a friend how to play a video game.

5. List at least five tips that would help someone who was learning how to play your favorite video game.

6. Play an appropriate video game with a friend for one hour. 7. Play a video game that will help you practice your math, spelling, or another skill that helps you in your schoolwork.

8. Choose a game you might like to purchase. Compare the price for this game at three different stores. Decide which store has the best deal. In your decision, be sure to consider things like the store return policy and manufacturers warranty.

9. With an adult's supervision, install a gaming system.

 

I cringe when a scout finds out about it and wants to earn it.

 

 

Of these requirements, what makes you cringe about it?

 

 

IMO, This is the boys' program, we just facilitate it for them. I'm certainly not going to draw a line in the sand over what belt loops a boy can or can't earn.

 

[Lisabob]

I don't much care for the video game beltloop even though some of the requirements are better than "go play a game." My distaste for it comes from the fact that I think cubs should be focused more on getting the kids out the door, not encouraging them to be glued to the screen. I imagine the original poster is thinking something kind of similar.

 

But I think this is not a battle I would want to fight. Come on, it is a belt loop for a 7 year old. You could make your principled stand on this hill but let's think about how it might end. Kid will be in tears because he thought he had earned something that you are now denying. Parent will probably be angry - as much at your harsh stance toward the kid, as about the actual substantive issue. Adults may end up in a verbal shoving match (or worse!) . Kid may decide he doesn't like cubs any more, or parent may decide they don't want their kid in your program any more. Kid drops out. Over a belt loop.

 

You might say that's an exaggeration and hopefully, it is. On the other hand, I've known people to get pretty worked up about some pretty insignificant stuff!

 

Let's look at another path:

 

You don't need to promote awareness of this loop. Chances are that few parents and boys will find out about it, if you (pack leaders) don't tell them. Instead, you could actively promote a few of the more traditional loops - pick some you really want the boys to try! Make your den and pack program rich enough that the boys & their parents are content with what they're getting and not looking for other outlets. Then, if a boy or two do unearth the video game belt loop and they earn it, award it. Don't make a big fuss about it, keep your program focus on the other outdoorsy activities, and move on. You keep the kid in the program where you can expose him to all sorts of other activities that don't include the glow of a screen, the kid gets the award he legitimately earned, no drama ensues, and life goes on.

 

That's the path I'd take. All the while holding my nose at the existence of the video game belt loop.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, sure a unit can.

 

There's no obligation that a CO use the advancement method/program. Lots of crews don't use da Venturing recognitions program at all. Some troops don't.

 

A few troops might, on religious or ethical grounds, not offer a particular award. Perhaps a troop chartered to da Society of Friends and Rifle MB.

 

A CO can even create its own recognitions program and ignore da BSA one.

 

I think, as other people have said, it's more of a "not offered here" sort of thing. At least I'd expect that to be the tone. "Our unit does not offer the XX award."

 

I expect you'd get a lot of parent support for such a position with respect to video games. But if it's goin' to be a shooting argument among the committee, then it's probably not worth the fight.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Eagle92]

Stupid question, but here it goes: When did the CS Sports and Academics Program become advancement?

 

Grant you I don't have a copy of the advancement guidelines in front on me, so things may have changed, but when I worked for supply division, the belt loops and pins were not considered advancement, did not need an advancement report to purchase, and were not restricted. So if a mom got upset b/c her cub didn't get his BB Gun belt loop, she could buy one herself.

 

Also when I go to scoutstuff.org both the belt loops and pins ship within 3 days, unlink rank which "... a restricted item. Available only in your local council trading post or Scout Shop with required paperwork."

 

That said, while I think it was ridiculous to make a video games belt loop and pin, Scouting is OUTING even at the Cub ScOUTING level, I would give the award, but not promote it.

[moosetracker]

True Eagle92.. I was just going through that in my thread about CS belt loops & pins. These are not really advancement.

 

But still it is sort of denying a CS a prize he expects at the end of the rainbow based on your personal like or dislike of the subject matter.

[The Blancmange]

I guess I fall into the camp with those who suggest not making a big deal about this. If a leader does not like the belt loop/pin, don't mention or promote it. If someone discovers it on his own and earns it, just award it. The boy probably had fun doing it and will now try other activities. Is the video games loop any less worthwhile than say, marbles?

[DeanRx]

Perhaps I was somewhat vague in my OP. I would never withold or refuse to give an award that a youth has earned. My question is: Can an individual unit (based on ANY criteria - but in this case an outright disagreement with the substance of the award) pass a policy that states in effect, "In Pack XXX we will not recognize, nor award x,y,z because we feel it doesn't fit with the aims of scouting, regardless of whether it is endorsed by BSA national."

 

We already do not promote the Video Game belt loop (I personally and many adult leaders in the group feel it is the exact opposite of what scouting should be trying to achieve). However, can we go as far as to put into the unit by-laws that we don't want to recognize it, thus going forward we will not award it?

 

Its not a line in the sand issue, and I get what posters are stating about 'do you really want to fall on your sword for this one?". However, in an age when we have to constantly remind kids (and adults) to put down the gadget (I've actually had to speak with parents in the unit about NOT allowing kids to bring PSP / DSi / etc to den meetings and pack meetings), WHY would we even entertain this type of award? Same for reading belt loop? Same for manners belt loop?

 

I thought reading was what you went to school to learn? I thought manners was just a given part of the program? Really, a belt loop for saying please, thank you, and maybe setting the table?

 

Maybe I'm just trying too hard to be creative in finding a way to dis-allow such things in the unit. But, I figured if BSA allows leeway in other program areas, why not this one as well?

 

Maybe its a battle not worth fighting. But it really makes me have to hold my nose whenever one of these belt loops comes up on an awards list.

[shortridge]

Dean, your argument strikes me as a bit confusing.

 

You say: "I would never withold or refuse to give an award that a youth has earned."

 

And yet you want to do just that: "In Pack XXX we will not recognize, nor award x,y,z because we feel it doesn't fit with the aims of scouting, regardless of whether it is endorsed by BSA national."

 

You hit the nail on the head in your last line. This is not a battle worth fighting. Write letters of complaint to National, if you want, but don't punish the kids for having fun and learning. That's a ridiculous and self-defeating position. The Cub did his best, worked with his Akela and earned a belt loop. That's what matters. It doesn't affect the moral authority of the pack one whit.

 

/snark on

 

If you're going to take such a strong position against video games, remind the members of your Pack Purity Patrol to confiscate all BlackBerries, smartphones and iPods from the hands, pockets and purses of your pack parents before they enter your meetings. What's good for the gander ...

 

/snark off

 

Really, if you're having problems with kids playing games during pack meetings ... make the pack meetings more interesting.

[moosetracker]

Well as I said before their is a reading MB for boyscouts.. Probably what will set you off worse based on your comments about the reading Belt loop is there is a scholar MB which is basically to get good grades in school, I think there was a report on why school is important to you and some such.. A scout that is already good in school can roll that off with no effort at all..

 

Still there it is.. I would talk to your Advancement chair & DE if you feel so strongly. I doubt they would back you but you may need it if parents go complaining. So see if they will or not before you make a public statement.

 

I say just take a clothespin to the Pack meeting in case you need to put in on.. Award it as quietly as possible, or in a mound of other things the scout gets so that it is not announced the availability of it.. May not work as parents & boys will talk, but I think all of us have things in scouts we dislike, or things with our unit we dislike.. Few can state the Scout organization is picture perfect. But the good out weighs the bad so we from time to time put the clothespins on our nose and walk through..

[CalicoPenn]

What does your chartering organization say about it? Have you asked them if it's ok to ignore that particular belt loop/academic pin? Are they ok with the Pack leadership declaring that they know better than the BSA when it comes to certain activities? Can you make an argument in opposition that the chartering organization would agree to?

 

Whle there may be units where something may not be recognized - in Beavah's hypothetical example, a Friends unit and Rifle Shooting Merit Badge, we need to remember that it isn't the Unit that has made that decision, it is the chartering organization. If a unit is making that decision without approval from the chartering organization, then the unit has strayed off course.

 

If you really feel you don't want to have to award the video game belt loop/academic pin - then do yourself a favor and get the chartering organization's sign off on that. Make sure they don't get blindsided someday by getting a call from the Scout Executive wondering just what they have against the video game belt loop/academic pin.

 

That being said, I wonder what the real justification is for not awarding it. From my reading, it appears that the Pack leadership just doesn't like it. Is that really enough of a reason? Can someone point to anything in the requirements that makes the belt loop/academic pin inappropriate other than "it encourages kids to play video games?" Frankly, with or without a belt loop/academic pin, the kids are going to play video games, whether you like it or not. I see in the requirements lessons in time management (schedule your game playing around chores and homework), budgeting (figure out a way to get a video game - I read this as do chores, earn money, save allowance money), comparison shopping (an important consumer skill), family togetherness, choosing appropriate games - nothing I see suggests becoming a couch potato in the parent's basement 20 hours a day subsisting on Doritos and Mountain Dew. I just don't see why this is such a big issue. Kids need to spend more time outdoors? I don't disagree, but I'm sure my parents would have loved having a game system around for my brothers and I on those rainy and cold, snowy days where we were stuck inside rather than our launching hot wheels cars into the furniture all the time.

 

You might notice that belt loops and academic pins for non-advancement purposes are much more of a Cub Scout thing than a Boy Scout thing. Why? Forgive the crudity in how I put this but it's because kids 5 to 10 are easier to fool into doing something educational if there is some kind of reward at the end - even if it's a silly as a gold star on top of a paper, or a belt loop, little pin, little patch. To an 8 year old, a big gold star on top of a spelling assignment is a lot more exciting than an "A+". The same holds true for the belt loops - they're learning and being rewarded, but without the reward, chances are they wouldn't even be exposed to those requirements.

 

On a side note, I'm sure that librarians will be thrilled to know that since reading is a school activity, then Reading Merit Badge is a waste of Boy Scout resources.

 

[The Blancmange]

Even when you phrase it in terms of an institutional decision, I still have to ask, why make a big deal out of it? I could understand if the CO was a pacifist organization, they might want to offer bb/archery or rifle/shotgun at the BS level, or an animal rights organization wanting to stay away from fishing (these are hypothetical CO's, as far as I know). There is nothing inherently awful about the items mentioned, they're just not as worthwhile as most of the others.

[OwntheNight]

E92 and Moosetracker,

For the most part, the belt loop program is meant to enhance the program not replace it. However, the only Bl's that are required for "advancement" are citizenship for AOL citizen, and 2 from the individual and Team sports categories for AOL sportsman. All the rest are included as choices in the other Webelos activity pins amongst the "do X of the following" requirements.

 

I thought reading was what you went to school to learn?

 

Scoutson is going to be mad about this one! What's he going to do with his limited free time now? Punishment for him is when I TAKE the book away from him, and make him stop reading. He usually has 3 or 4 books going at the same time.