No Reference Letters – No EBOR

[CNYScouter 46]

My son has been dragging his feet with his Eagle Project.

Hes turning 18 on Nov. 12 and has his project scheduled for this weekend.

 

He also dragged his feet with his reference letters and just got the letters out asking for references letters.

 

He received an email from his Eagle Mentor who is also on the EBOR telling him:

 

Contrary to popular belief they MUST be at the council office by the end of the day before your 18th birthday

or No EBOR

 

In the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Guide book on page 31. - #12 (last sentence)

A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

 

I have been told that getting these letters in can take some time in which my son doesnt have.

 

 

With time being short what is the best course of action?

 

[Eamonn 61]

If I were your son (I bet you perish the thought!)

I'd call the District Advancement Chair.

Explain what is what and add that I'd received an email from Mr. Mentor which I think is not right.

If the DAC says that this is the way that things are done and must be, I'd get my tail around to the people who are doing the letters and camp out on their doorstep.

The letter doesn't have to be that long just a line or two saying that young Dave is a good kid.

Ea.

[scoutldr 732]

That statement is in there because there is NO requirement for reference letters. The requirement is on the Eagle Application..."list the names of people who WOULD BE WILLING to serve as a reference". You can't MAKE them send one in. And it doesn't say it has to be a letter. Could be a phone call or face to face conversation. If your council is requiring letters received by the 18th birthday, they are adding to requirements and would probably be overturned on appeal. Furthermore, of all the EBOR I have been involved in, the SCOUT merely provides the names...the CC takes care of requesting the references. (We do Unit EBOR with a District rep present).

[eghiglie 10]

The names of people WILLING to be a ref are required

 

The people listed don't actually have to send one in. As pointed out it could be an email or a phone call.

 

I've seen one or two EBOR's with only the letter from the parents.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Not that I would ever want to be an obnoxious, pompous, arrogant, pedantic, closeminded bookthumper, but this is taken from number 6 on the 12 Steps to Eagle found in the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook:

6. When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association). The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application by letter, form, or telephone checklist. (The council determines the method or methods to be used.) The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee. If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses. The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

Since the Council may decide how the references are to be checked, they may require the Eagle Candidate to ask for letters, this is covered in the sentence "If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references." it also means the Council has to have blank reference forms and envelopes. So, asking for reference letters is possible and a BSA approved practice. Now, it also says "A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered"

So I guess you have to have someway of documenting the scout delivered the blank reference fom and envelope.

The easier way, of course, is to be sure who ever is asked for a reference, does it immediately and the scout stays on topof the situation and doesnt rest until the letters are in. Remember, these are for the references listed on the Eagle Application, these are not for additional references.

Eagle is so close, I would do everything I could to not make it a rule book debate, but I have laid out the rules, as I interpret them, as a reference.

 

 

[Mike F 10]

OGE,

 

You found the reference needed!

 

I'd like to point out another quote from it:

"The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names."

 

Candidate has done his part by providing references, greasing the skids, and perhaps delivering reference letter requests (council discretion).

 

Since national prohibits the candidate from making follow-up contacts, it's up to the adults. Theoretically this could be done at Council or District level, but Troop Advancement Chair, Committee Chair, or Eagle Advisor are very common.

 

Try to avoid blow-up over rule details and just get the letters in the next couple of weeks. Yes, phone calls technically probably legal, but I don't think you're local crowd is going to take that without more delay. Instead make the point crystal clear to references that this does not have to be extensive. Like Eamonn said - short and sweet - "Dave is a good kid who I believe lives up to the ideals of Boy Scouting as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law. One example I have observed is when he...." Second sentence is optional.

[evmori 11]

I would tell this so-called mentor his information is totally contradictory to National regs!

[scoutldr 732]

Thank goodness for pedantic book-thumpers. There has been a void here that needed filling. The problem is, we need "book(s)-thumpers". God forbid they should put all relevant rules, requirements and information in one location.

[eisely 13]

I agree with the other posts about the rules. Having said that, the young man should move promptly to get these references identified and underway. He should probably coordinate with the District Advancement Chair about where the reference letters should be sent.

 

The rules do not mention use of email but this may be an option for expediting the whole thing. I am the eagle coordinator for our troop. I make it part of my job to be the collector of the reference letters. A couple of years ago I had one scout ask me if he could use a reference who resided in the UK and request that person to send me an email. I said, "Sure, why not?" I got the email in due course, printed it out and included it in the scout's package. The one extra thing that I did on my own authority was to include a written signed statement of my own in the lad's binder affirming that I had received the email and that it was not something that the scout had simply handed to me. I never heard back from anybody about this and he passed his EBOR so I infer that it was OK.

[packsaddle 753]

The mentor either does not know the requirements or else he is repeating something he has been told to repeat by the council. If the former, then you should ask him to read the references noted in the previous messages and ask him how he came to the conclusion about letters. If he's been told this by council then you can either knuckle under or prepare for an appeal. Either way, your son should make sure that all of his requirements, as written, are complete before his 18th birthday, and that the signatures where needed, to signify those completions are also on the paper and dated accordingly.

Good luck.

OGE, are you developing a chip on your shoulder? What's all this stuff about pedantic, blah, blah, blah, personality traits? Did I miss something? OK, don't answer that, I know I miss lots of stuff. I'm just curious to know if someone was mean to you or something.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Thank you for your councern Pack, not any bigger chip than the norm

[CNYScouter 46]

Our district has a Mentoring Life to Eagle guide.

If any one is interested here is a link to a copy:

http://www.cnyscouts.org/districts/oneida/Mentoring_Life_to_Eagle_2008-10-19_PUBLISHED.pdf

 

There is also a shorter version that says the same thing:

http://www.cnyscouts.org/districts/oneida/Life_To_Eagle_Quick_Start_Guide_2008-07-09_PUBLISHED.pdf

 

Here is the section on Letters of Reference:

 

Requirement #2 of the Eagle Scout Rank Application asks the Scout to identify certain individuals who know him personally and would be willing to provide a letter of recommendation on his behalf.

 

1. As soon as the Scouts project proposal has been approved, the Scout should begin the process of soliciting his letters of recommendation. A sample request for a letter of recommendation, including instructions for the person writing the recommendation, can be found in Appendix G, Instructions for Providing Letters of Recommendation. It is suggested that the Scout provide a stamped, pre-addressed business size envelope along with his request to enhance the likelihood of a timely response.

2. Letters of recommendation are to be sent directly to the Council Service Center, and not handled personally by the Scout at any time.

3. Verify receipt of the required letters of recommendation at the Council Service Centerby calling the Eagle Clerk (Reference 11.2, Important Contact Information below).

4. Contact individuals who have not yet mailed in their letters. It may become necessary to find an alternate person to provide one or more of the required letters of recommendation. If this becomes the case, the Scout must update his list of references shown on the Eagle Scout Rank Application [Requirement #2].

5. Letters of Recommendation must arrive at the Council Service Center before the

6. Scouts 18th birthday or the Scout will not be able to proceed with his Eagle Board of Review.

7. Plan Ahead! Do not wait until the last minute!

 

I know there are a couple of things listed that contradict the National Guidelines.

 

Back in Jan., after I was told that my son couldnt earn Eagle as a Venturer, I mentioned to the DAC that I saw other discrepancies between the Advancment Committee Guide Book and our districts documents.

 

Our Advancement Committee doesnt seem to be in any hurry to correct them.

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, CNYScouter, I reckon all and sundry can debate the particulars of various national guidebooks vs. individual council practice all day, eh?

 

I'd offer two thoughts.

 

1. This is your son's problem, not yours. If you take da problem away from him or tell him how to solve it, I hope yeh have room on your jacket for an Eagle Scout medal, because you should be the one wearin' it, eh? Either he'll earn Eagle or he won't; either way you should be proud and supportive.

 

2. Most of da letters I've seen over the years were written and delivered in less than two weeks, so I honestly don't think there's any problem here at all if your son communicates well. School officials tend to be da slowest, but if he asks a teacher or counselor who's already written a college rec for him it should be quick, eh?

 

I now return yeh to the regular banter of book quoting and folks who will call your local youth volunteers jerks.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC 311]

I tend to agree with Beavah, but I'd recommend having a brief sit-down with your son and then sending him forth to ask questions of those who he asked for references.

 

The object lesson you're trying to teach is perservearance...

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Hey pack, did you read:

 

"I now return yeh to the regular banter of book quoting and folks who will call your local youth volunteers jerks."

 

As I was one to banter on about the quoting of books I can only surmise this was at least obliquely directed at me. I didnt call any youth volunteer a jerk as far as I remember and I think I even said that the youth should comply, what was it I said? Oh yes:

 

"The easier way, of course, is to be sure who ever is asked for a reference, does it immediately and the scout stays on topof the situation and doesnt rest until the letters are in. Remember, these are for the references listed on the Eagle Application, these are not for additional references.

 

Eagle is so close, I would do everything I could to not make it a rule book debate, but I have laid out the rules, as I interpret them, as a reference."

 

I thought I was doing a service in providing the BSA Literature quote, you asked if I had a chip on my shoulder, I think the why is obvious