2 eagle BORs

[spinnaker]

Help. Mad mom here. First of all in our council eagle BORs are conducted at the district level. They do a good job. My son "x" just turned 18 - turned in his eagle project book and application that he found online to council one day before 18th birthday. He was told wrong application - that he needed a verified application - and the council registrar gave him one. The "wrong application" was already signed by SM and CC. He called both and asked for signatures on the good application. And asked younger brother to take to troop meeting to get signatures.(He stayed home to help clean). I got a call from the scout meeting saying they wanted "x" for a BOR ? (even though the didtrict will do the official BOR) Despite my questions and protests, X put on uniform and went to meeting. The BOR ( thats what they called it) was made up of CC, and 4 ASMs... one of them "Mr G" has always has a problem with X - allowing his son to do things then yelling if X did the same, etc. We are somewhat new to the troop - having transfered from another. Mr G did most of the talking, stating that X did not show scout spirit. (X has never missed a meeting, went on most camp outs, went with troop to summer camp, organized a troop service project etc. ) so... the BOR did not think he should be eagle so the CC did not sign the new application even though the SM did. I know X can still submit application challenge that decision (is that the word ?) but I am mad that one person can take it out on a boy. As a member of troop committee I don't want to see any scout get treated like X. Any Comments ? Thank you,

 

YIS,

Spinnaker

[nldscout]

File an immediate appeal with the Council advancement committee. They are going to override the idiot in a heartbeat.

 

Don't ya hate pompus asses like that

[TheScout]

To play devils advocate - Can't the CC hold his signature from the applicaton?

 

Can't he ask the advice of some of the committee members and some ASMs?

[scoutingagain]

Let me get this straight. The Troop decided to hold a BOR, with the scout not even there to discuss anything and decided to withold the application at the unit level?

 

I agree with nldscout, file the appeal immediately. Be sure to include in your appeal a description of the process the unit used to deny the application. Have it confirmed by the SM if you can. Turn everything in as soon as you can.

 

Gees, why do these things have to turn into a semi-legal, issue? It's amazing to me how some adults cna be so petty as to take stuff out on a child.

 

SA

[Hunt]

But...the boy stayed home to "help clean" when he urgently needed these signatures? This is all after his 18th birthday, when he had turned in the wrong application...which he found online and filled out the day before his birthday? This story doesn't really make sense to me...maybe we need more details before we leap to his defense.

[FScouter]

Why did the CC sign the first app and refused the 2nd?

[Beavah]

Hiya Spinnaker,

 

Deep breaths! Remember, this is mostly your son's game to play, so while it's OK to be mad at the call, it's still your job to stay in the stands and cheer for your son at the moment.

 

First, recognize that there are errors here on both sides. Your son is pushin' the time limits and did a half-a**ed job with the Application. Perhaps from not understanding, but also from not reading the directions. Then he may have inadvertently blown off a meeting where he was expected. Recognize that if he's a recent member of the troop, the folks in the troop don't know him that well, so being late with stuff on top of some behavioral issues is going to make people really question his readiness for Eagle. You don't mention exactly what the behavioral issues were, but I think it's fair to hold an 18 year old Eagle Scout to a higher standard than other boys (like Mr. G's son) who are younger.

 

All that having been said, there seems to be a bunch of confusion about process and expectations. From afar, I can't tell the source. Did the troop not communicate or coach your son well? Did your son not understand the expectations on him or blow them off a bit? Are you getting all your information filtered through your son (we all know how much teenagers share details with their parents and are very objective about 'em, eh? )?

 

Anyway, here's the steps to proceed. The SM has signed. The CC is supposed to sign on behalf of the unit committee but has not.

 

1. Since the SM endorsed your son's application, your son should call the SM and meet with him and find out what's up, and what his/her advice is on how to proceed. The SM may already be taking some measures on your son's behalf.

 

2. If the SM is staying out of it for some reason, your son should call the CC and request a meeting of the full unit committee to hear his appeal, or find out if that "BOR" reflected the unit committee's decision. If the latter, he should request a statement in writing explaining the reasons for the decision.

 

3. Your son should call the district advancement chair and request an Eagle BOR time slot. If his application does not have the CC's signature, he should let the DAC know (in advance!) that he is coming with the SM's endorsement but not the unit committee's. The DAC will schedule a BOR for him, and the BOR will consider the recommendation letters from your son's references, the SM's position, and the unit committee's position and make their decision.

 

All of this should be done in a cordial, polite, respectful, and friendly manner befitting the behavior of an Eagle Scout and his family.

 

Hope dat helps, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[allangr1024]

My son turned in an Eagle application the day before his birthday, and forgot to get the signature of the rep from the community organization he did his project for. I know what a roller coaster ride that is. He scrambled to get all the I's dotted and T's crossed that day.

 

My question is this. What is the makeup of the troop committee. Is there a good seperation between the ASM staff and the committee, or is there a small pool of adults and everyone does a bit of everything, regardless of adult position? Is there a troop advancement chair, or Life to Eagle coordinator? Does the troop normally have BOR of its own for its Eagle candidates, or is this just for this case?

 

To me, it seems that if the SM has signed off on the scout spirit requirement and concluded a successful SM conference, the committee should only be concerned with stuff like correct paperwork, valid merit badge completions, duely registered scout, ect. In my troop the scout does not submit an Eagle application or Eagle project application unless the Life to Eagle coordination looks everything over for completeness, quality, and appearence. But I have not heard of having a formal BOR at the troop level.

 

The scout spirit thing is a big bugaboo with me too. There are no objective standards for approving, and it is hard to come up with them. You can measure attendance, and participation in the troop, and possibly incidents of bad behavior. In an age of ADD and AD/HD and clinical depression, it is tough to tell what is happening with a kid. If the scout has done everything required for Eagle, I would have to have proof of evil malicious behavior before I denied him his rank.

 

 

[LongHaul]

      The fact that the SM and CC signed an "unofficial" app makes me wonder if this troop is familiar with the Eagle application process. Seems like the application was handled badly right along.

     I would have the scout ask the CC for a written explanation of the BOR's decision and the BOR's suggested remedy. I would also ask that the names of each of the members of that BOR be listed.

     I think the Distinct Advancement Chair needs to be involved before this turns into a test of power between Mr. G and your son. The DAC should be made aware of the fact that your son's fitness to file an Eagle application was originally approved by both the SM and CC. The DAC should be made aware of the fact that the "in house BOR" was called after the fact and without prior notification of your son. The DAC should be made aware of the fact that the BOR was composed of 80% non Troop Committee members and 80% composed of members that should not have been seated on any BOR let alone an Eagle BOR in house or not. There is a reason SMs and ASMs are not supposed to be on a BOR and this may be a good example for that policy.

LH

[Beavah]

A kind poster PM'd me about my use of "half-a**ed", and I agree with him. I apologize for that (just didn't get to it to edit in time). The way I was "saying" it in my head had all the right jovial and joshing inflection, but that doesn't carry in print.

 

Please edit that in your mind, spinnaker, to read "was pushin' the time limits and did a hasty/last minute/incomplete job on the application." Like most kids do at da last minute, eh?

 

I'd still advise the steps, and the tone, that I mentioned. I don't reckon anything is served by tryin' to short-circuit the process provided by the regs for handling this stuff. Going through it step by step in order demonstrates that your son is deserving of Eagle in ways that callin' up the DAC and making accusations just doesn't.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[LongHaul]

If my post seemed to suggest that the DAC be contacted for the purpose of making accusations then I apologize. The fact that my post could be taken to have said that makes me wonder if the proceedings are not suspect.  If  in telling the DAC what happened and the order in which it happened seems to be accusatory it would seem to me that something is wrong with what happened or the order in which it happened.  What I have found is that the first one to speak to the person in charge can alter the outcome of future discussions. If the DAC is aware of the circumstances from the perspective of the scout the DAC can be looking for answers for the scout. If the DAC gets the information from Mr. G the DAC then gets the perspective of MR. G. If the DAC gets the info from the CC who seemingly changed his/her opinion of the fitness of the scout to file an Eagle app that information will most likely be given in a manner to support that change of heart. Going thru channels is great as long as everyone does it. In this case that did not happen. The BOR was called under irregular circumstances. It was called without prior notification of the scout. It was composed of "questionable" members. I think the DAC needs to know the basics before he/she hears the explanations for why it was done this way.  What really need to happen first is the BOR needs to issue a written explanation for the decision and their recommendations for correction.

LH

[ScoutNut]

Don't know what a "verified" Eagle application is. If he used the application on the NESA site then it is an official BSA form and should have been fine. Didn't he get an Eagle packet with all forms and everything in it when he made Life?

 

A BOR, especially an eagle BOR, is NOT supposed to have ANY ASM's on it at all. This sounds like a sham BOR that was in reality some kind of Inquisition or retaliation.

 

Having your son contact both the SM and CC to see what is going on is a good idea. One of his first questions should be why the original application was signed by the CC, but the new one was not. What could possibly have happened in the space of a few days to warrant that.

 

 

[LongHaul]

Don't know about the rest of the world but here in good old Chicago.... We don't supply the color, heavy paper, official Eagle app in the standard Life to Eagle packet in a effort to save money. The down loaded forms are not "official" and can be held up. We are told to get the "official" form from council or our DAC when we have a scout that is serious about completion of the requirements. AS a SM of 13+ years I can think of several reasons the CC signed the first app but was reluctant to sign the second. Is an in house BOR SOP for this troop? Did scout x present this app to be signed with no time left for that BOR and the CC signed so as to not deny this scout Eagle even though an in house BOR was never held? How did the scout handle the impromptu BOR? How did the Scout respond to MR G? What really happened during the BOR? I've had a case where a boy actually tried to tell the BOR what it could and could not ask (not an Eagle BOR ) The scout could have changed the CC's mind by how he responded and act during the BOR, proper or not.

LH

[SMEagle819]

That's the question I have in my head as well; what form was used? Our council also has stopped including the multi-color, heavy paper stock Eagle app in the Eagle workbooks. Now you are supposed to go to the council office and get a "working copy" of an electonic form that shows the merit badges earned, ranks earned, etc. This form is rather useless, however, because many of these dates are not filled in. They still need to be filled in by the applicant. (Thank goodness for good record keeping!) I have started using this form as a "rough draft" copy, and downloading the "Eagle Application" from the BSA National website.

 

I also have to agree that having an impromtu BOR with ASMs involved is a breech of protocol. As SM, I don't even sit in on any BORs, much less an Eagle BOR. I'm there to introduce the applicant, and be supportive of the applicant. I would have the prospective Eagle contact the SM and have a discussion about this issue. I would have a separate discussion with the CC. I also agree that these discussions should be done in a courteous and respectful manner.

[LongHaul]

In North East Illinois Council that "working copy" refects what is actually in Scout Net. If dates are not there these things need to be addressed before the app is presented or you "may" have problems. The purpose of the "working copy" is to alert the unit to any record gaps or errors prior to the actual Eagle application.

LH