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packsaddle

The minimum Eagle project that can be approved at the SM conference

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Yah, FScouter...

 

Yeh gotta understand that the project signature is meant to be signed by the registered leader who is "closest" to da project, eh? The purpose, as stated in the booklet, is to certify that the boy actually did/led the project himself.

 

In small units, a SM might do everything. In bigger units, ASMs get delegated tasks. Life to Eagle advisor/coach/mentor is one of those, eh? My guess is that more than half of the troops out there use some version of this position; it's a well-known and accepted variation in all councils I'm familiar with.

 

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Packsaddle, IMO the Scout Spirit requirement is the most important one, eh? It's the only one that really gets to the heart of our goals, the only one that allows us to push boys a bit on issues of character, or doin' their best/doing more than the minimum.

 

I think your job is to support da SM, eh? No boy is hurt by having a caring adult push him a bit to do his best job. And the Golden Rule applies too... do unto a fellow Scouter as you would have others do unto you. Nothin' worse for the health of a unit than adults not supportin' each other and the boys gettin' wind of it.

 

Don't undermine your SM with this or other boys. Support him. Because that's what's best for da unit and da boys eh? ;) I'd just tell the boy "SM Jones still has some issues with you about Scout Spirit. You need to get with him and work those out. I support him. Whether you recognize it or not, he gives a huge amount of time to you and the other guys in the troop. You have to respect that commitment. And one of the ways to do that is to listen to him when he's pushin' yeh to do even more, because he wants you to show your very best to the Board, eh?"

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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Beavah, yeah I agree. I can deal with the physical stuff and the clearly defined stuff but when it comes to the gooey things like spirit there are as many views as there are people to view them. I already told the SM that the spirit question is his alone.

I guess that's why he's paid the big bucks. ;)

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An Eagle project is to show leadership. How can a Scout do that if he is the only participant? I don't believe he can. And I'm not real big on developing web sites as Eagle Projects. Sure they take a lot of work but usually, once the Scout has completed the project, the web site goes bye-bye!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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Yeh gotta understand that the project signature is meant to be signed by the registered leader who is "closest" to da project, eh?

 

I understand that the application and the workbook ask for the signature of the Scoutmaster, no one else. If the SM wants to delegate an assistant to work with an Eagle candidate, he certainly may do so. But when it comes time to sign the paperwork it is the Scoutmaster that is certifying that the work has been completed as described.

 

In the instance being described in this thread, the SM was not approving the work, and others were contemplating an end-run around the SM. There is an appeal process through the troop committee to advance a boys application over the objection of the SM, but simply having another person sign the paperwork is subverting the process and is not appropriate. Either get the signature of the SM, or run through an appeal.

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Fscouter, since I began this thread the problem has evolved, actually in the last day or so. I have been going at it hammer and tong with the SM, the latest interaction was about scout spirit. I quoted the Q&A that John-in-KC repeated from scouting.org and the SM replied, "No, I think spirit goes WAY beyond that..."

 

When I suggested that it would be a fair request for him to clarify his thoughts in detail on what that meant - well, he got upset with me. He dismissed my arguments without considering the merits ("I just don't agree.") and suggested that by following BSA rules to the letter, a scout wouldn't have to attend a single activity or meeting and suggested that I begin a 'lone scout' program. Rriiiiiigghhht!

 

He then began describing activities, participation, and leadership aspects that he interprets as 'spirit'. So much for BSA's definition, I guess. But so far I'm not fired and he's still talking to me. I'm working on it.'

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Packsaddle, this has been a great thread. After all that has been posted here, I would say that you're facing an old school view of what Scout Spirit is and you're probably not going to change your Scoutmaster's mind on that subject anytime soon. That is a debate that has raged for the ages and even though Nat'l has made it's understanding of what constitutes Scout Spirit very clear and in human readable language, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

 

As stated before, you should support the Scoutmaster publicly, and consult in private. There should be no division between the adult leadership viewed by the troop or the committee, this will bite you in the kiester later down the road. Private consultation my mean having a cup of coffee some night, or a malted beverage, whatever your hearts desire, but make it a conversation not a confrontation.

 

If your Scoutmasters view of Scout Spirit for the rank of Eagle is built around the project only, then you may need more malted beverages to help him see that the project isn't everything, it's only a piece of the whole puzzle that makes the Eagle.

 

Quite a tight rope you're on. Advocate for the scout, and publicly support the Scoutmaster and his decisions. All in a day's work, eh?

 

Good luck

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kb6jra, thanks for the good words. Believe it or not, he is the new guy but with the old view. However, in spite of appearances we get along fine. Almost like a game of tag. He's a big guy (literally) but he knows I can outrun him. We both know that we're both interested in what's best for the boys so when we argue, it is pointed in the direction of contructive interactions. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother trying and neither would he. This particular boy in question will be OK this time around. He may have to do an extra dance this time, but who doesn't from time to time? Hopefully the process of the two of us advocating for each of our views will somehow continue to move toward optimization.

Wow, that's a 'glass half-full' outlook isn't it?

 

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"Wow, that's a 'glass half-full' outlook isn't it?"

 

I love it when a plan comes together!

 

LOL! I love this game.

 

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Great thread!

 

Packsaddle, what I will suggest risks hardening positions and it sounds as if you are skillfully getting movement from the SM. However, if he ever becomes obstinant and simply refuses to proceed, then I believe taht you, and the Scout, are within your reasonable rights to ask him to document clearly why he believes that the Scout does not meet the Scout Spirit requirement for Eagle Scout. If he declines to do that, then I would suggest that you document it, as you have described it here, take it to him and ask if this accurately represents his position so that he will sign it.

 

If he refuses that, then point out the difficulty to the Scout that his position is taking. He is saying "no" but not giving a reason that the boy can work with. You then could take your note to the Board of Review and explain that this is what the SM told you orally but did not want to confirm in writing.

 

Ugly business. Much better if reason prevails and agreement can be reached.

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In general I agree with most of the comments people have about Eagle projects. Let's not forget that the Eagle project should be a challenge to a boy's ability. To someone with severe handicaps, this project may be an appropriate challenge, and therefore an acceptable project

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PS,

 

Remember that if a Scoutmaster declines to sign an Eagle app, he is opening the door to an appeal procedure.

 

Gently remind him that if he declines an Eagle application, he needs his ducks in a row. If Billy calls the DE (or if Billy's parents call the DE) and this gets dumped in the District Advancement Chair's lap, life is going to get very interesting, very fast.

 

This goes back to our "What is an Active Scout" thread. National has set a standard. Unit serving leaders can ignore the standard ... but they have to accept the risk that comes with the action.

 

The outcome none of us want is for the Scoutmaster to lose credibility with his Scouts or with District volunteers. That can be described as a Very Bad Thing.

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I noticed you refered to a thread as to what defines an active Scout. Please point out the link to that topic as I have been trying to deal with some of the older boys over how to interpret that requirement.

Thanks

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