"Stalled on the Trail"

[John-in-KC]

We've all seen him before. He got Life on time, about age 14, did his POR time, then he stalled. He continues in the unit because his friends are there. He's done his share of the work. He's done some advancement, but not seriously worked those last few Eagle required MBs.

 

We all understand the rules and our part as Scouters in his growth, development, and advancement. (That's why I spun this from OGE's post )

 

He's 17 now. The first bell to aging out has rung. The next one comes in 9 months. If he hasn't started Personal Fitness, Personal Management, and Family Life in time to get the 90 day requirement done, then it's over.

 

As a Scouter, you're prepared to invest whatever you can to help him, but he has to get his fourth point of contact off the sofa and into gear. He's got to show some initiative.

 

He's worth the effort for one last wake-up call.

 

What's your war story here? How hard have you pushed?

[CNYScouter]

My son stalled at Star over 2 years ago.

Being in the Ship has sparked new interest and he finally finished the required MB's for Life about 3 weeks ago.

 

He only has 2 Citizenships (community and world), Family Life, Personal Fitness and Lifesaving or Emer. Prep. for his Eagle.

He has a partial in Emer. Prep. And will be taking Lifesaving (BSA Lifeguard in July)

 

He has been discussing and looking into a project for Eagle

 

He will be 16 in Nov. so I haven't starting pushing yet.

But I know sometime in the near future he will need an extra push to get through the MB's he has left and I am waiting to see how much he gets done on his own.

 

 

[ccjj]

My son is 17, and just needs to get his project wrote up, and signed and finish Personal Management and Personal Fitness.

Am I pushing him? Almost. I am reminding him every couple of days to get things done. I would hate to see him get this far, and not finish because he got lazy.

His grandpa is the one who is pushing him the most right now. And, I think that will push him along more than I can ever do.

 

ccjj

[Venividi]

Some of the best scouts that I ever worked with never got Life, let alone Eagle. They were there because they enjoyed the experiences, they were internally motivated to pursue what interested them. thinking of one in particular it started out as loving camping; later, backpacking. Then cross country running in high school. At times, he could be counted on to share his enthusiasm for outdoor skills,and eager to teach others. At other times, he was obstinant, and butted heads with the scoutmaster.

After graduating high school, he chose to attend NOLS, spending a semester learning in the backcountry. Spent a year working for the National Park Service. Now, back in college pursuing a degree.

 

I would not trade away any scout that follows his passion(s).

The awards are nice to see, but are intended as incentives to foster the same aims that those that are internally motivated are able to achieve without the award.

 

John-in-KC, your passion for scouting is obvious, and your willingness to share with us here on the forum is much appreciated. I believe you do this for the intrinsic reward; no physical award that we could send you would make you a better person; you are internally motivated. I cant help but think that your son is like you.

 

Venividi

[mdutch]

I am currently stalled at life (or was until a few weeks ago). Not a week has gone by in the past few months when at least 5 people haven't asked me how my eagle project is coming.

For me, what got me going, was the pushing that came from on of the ASMs in my troop (as opposed to all the pushing that came from my parents), so just some advice to find someone other than the family of the scout to do the pushing.

[GernBlansten]

Yes, most of our older scouts are stalled at Life. They get there by 14 or so, then stall out. Many are 16 and 17 and holding. Only prodding, cajoling, threats by their parents will get them to Eagle. They just don't show the initiative to do it themselves. IMHO, I don't think they should get it. But if they ask for my help, I'll give it.

 

My son is 14 and Life. Working on his project, but its taking a very long time. He's gung ho, but I can see his dedication to scouting starting to wain. Still has several badges to finish too. I ain't pushin him. If he wants Eagle, he needs to earn it himself.

Funny thing is, several scouters have rolled their eyes at a 14 year old pushing for Eagle. Think he's too young. I ignore them.

I envision him still working on the writeup and a couple of badges when he's 17, if he's still a scout.

[scoutldr]

"Only prodding, cajoling, threats by their parents will get them to Eagle. They just don't show the initiative to do it themselves. IMHO, I don't think they should get it."

 

If that's what it takes to "earn" the Eagle, then perhaps they're not Eagle material. There's a reason that the term "Eagle Scout" is held in such high regard. It denotes someone who has initiative and leadership qualities, not someone who can only get things done because someone else is nagging them.

[GernBlansten]

Yeah, every one of our "death bed" Eagle scouts weren't dedicated to the program. They were when they were 14, but lost it along the way. I'm coming to the conclusion that if you ain't Eagle by 16, you've lost the spark.

[ccjj]

I respectfully disagree with that statement GernBlansten.

 

My son is 17 and has not lost the spark. He is too active with other things to concentrate on working on his Eagle all the time. Yes he does need some pushing, but he is still VERY active and has not lost the spark.

 

He works with the younger boys in our troop, plus he helps out in the pack I am still with. He volunteers at any event our council asks him to. He is currently working at Boy Scout camp for the summer.

 

This is a boy who joined Scouting in December of 2000. Earned Scout in April of 2001, Tenderfoot in May of 2001 then Second Class in June of 2001. Then that is where he sat. His former troop believed in the ultimate boy lead troop. If the SPL said they were going to play basketball for 1 & 1/2 hours each week, that is what they did.

Well, he was bored. We started a new troop up in the fall of 2002, and he was one of the first 5 boys. Things were being organized, and the boys were being taught leadership skills. By summer of 2003 he made First Class. July of 2004 he earned Star, and July of 2005 Life. Yes he took longer than the required, but he was/is having fun.

Will he earn Eagle? I sure hope so, but if not, I know that he has had a blast along the way. Does he still have the spark, you bet.

 

He even plans to stay in Scouting after turning 18. He wants to help some of the younger boys in our troop on their trail to Eagle.

 

So, just because a boy doesn't earn Eagle by 16, I don't think he as always lost the spark.

 

ccjj

[GernBlansten]

Any scout who truly wants to become an Eagle, should have no problem getting it by 16. It also takes dedicated parents and a supportive unit. But most important, it takes initiative and priority by the scout.

 

That being said, I still think there's plenty to offer scouts who really don't care to be Eagles, much to the chagrin of their parents. Nothing wrong with that. I feel the majority of older scouts fall into this category. Pushing these scouts to become Eagles just waters down the significance of the award.

[Lisabob]

Here's the thing that bothers me. In other threads many of us (myself included) have given the advice to scouts and scouters that if a boy doesn't reach tenderfoot/second class/first class in a certain pre-conceived time frame, not to worry about it. That the boy will get there if/when he's ready and in the meantime, as long as he is getting all he can out of the program, all is well.

 

When we get to the other end of the spectrum and start talking about Eagles and "timing/aging out" then the tone changes dramatically. I understand that, really. We all want to see our young men reach as far as they can and achieve everything that they are able to achieve. We want the world to recognize their efforts and we want them to be able to say "Yes, I'm an Eagle Scout."

 

But I have to ask the following:

1) If boys in your program have "lost the spark" by the time they are 16, could you do anything different with the troop program to help change that?

 

2) If a boy just can't stomach the thought of finishing up certain of those Eagle-required MBs, would it help him to just talk about the topic (not even necessarily work on the MBs) with a different MB counselor, or even with another adult who isn't a MBC for that badge, but who has some life experience with the topic at hand? Some of those can be as dreadfully boring, or as wonderfully exciting, as the MBC helps to make them. In particular I'm thinking of the citizenship badges but I'm sure that holds true for some of the others too. Perhaps here's an opportunity to guide the boy to a more appropriate mentor.

 

3) If a boy is Star or Life "for life" does that necessarily diminish what he got out of the scouting program?

 

4) If, after all of this, a boy lacks the foresight or initiative or desire to finish up those last details for Eagle but you incessantly push him/nag him into doing it anyway (finally!), are you depriving him of a possibly painful, but potentially important, lesson later in life that some things can't be done "later" and that regret for leaving things undone can be very difficult to face? I know this is a lesson I personally wish I'd understood at 18-19-20 instead of later on when it mattered a lot more. For some of us pig-headed types the best teacher is our own experience - not what mom or dad or even SM tells us.

 

We have 3 boys in our troop right now who all look the same on paper - probable "deathbed Eagles." One hardly ever does anything with the troop, but he's working on writing up his Eagle project, finishing his last few MBs, and will probably get it all together in time. He has been a Life scout for at least 2 years now. I don't know him well (since he's seldom present) but I'd guess that the day he gets his Eagle, that will be it for him in scouting. I don't know why he's still pursuing the Eagle rank since he shows so little interest. This leaves me to believe someone is likely pushing him to do it.

 

A second boy works full time to help support his family, just graduated high school where he was heavily involved in a variety of music groups, earned a scholarship to college to study music, and comes to maybe half of the troop activities. He was a Star scout for a very long time, made Life just in the nick of time. When he's with the troop, he pitches in, teaches and mentors the younger scouts, gets along with everyone, and is just a great kid. He has already asked about becoming a MBC. He has been on the receiving end of some pushing by our advancement chair (his parent is not involved), but he's a self-motivated young man who just has some scheduling issues.

 

A third boy also just graduated high school, served this last 6 months as a TG for our new scouts and did a tremendous job. He goes on probably 2/3 of the camp outs and attends almost all meetings despite having been a high school senior and also working. I don't know if he'll finish (his dad takes a pretty hands off approach), though we're all cheering for him. This young man epitomizes what it means to be a Scout and really, he's an Eagle in spirit if not in fact. But he's also just real laid back and has never pursued rank advancement with much vigor. If he doesn't make it to Eagle that will be sad - but it isn't going to reduce his experience as a scout, either.

 

So I guess my point is that "deathbed" Eagles can arrive there for a bunch of reasons, some reflecting waning interest in the program, some not. If earning Eagle is more about the parents' goals than the boys' wishes, then hard as it may be, we might need to re-think our priorities and be sure we aren't living our dreams or experiences vicariously.

[Beavah]

Yah, I think there's plenty of middle-schoolers who get into achieving adult-set awards. Kinda like a live version of pursuing levels on a video game.

 

Sometime in early high school, boys become independent enough not to be fooled by adult-set awards, eh? This is called "growing up". High schoolers who still get "sparked" by accumulating badges because of adult pushing/recognition to my mind are an immature lot.

 

So there's plenty of kids who give up the badges and baubles, but continue actively in Scouting in a mature, self-motivated way, doin' the things they enjoy, contributing to their troop.

 

Of course, if da troop is mostly an Advancement-Focused troop, then when they get to that stage of maturity, there's nuthin' to hold them, and they fade out. Dat's a shame, eh? It's a sign of a troop that puts too much emphasis on advancement and doesn't have anything for the scouts who are growing up.

 

Ultimately, a mature lad has to identify with the Eagle badge as being representative of something he cares about. Not somethin' that his parents care about. Not somethin' that other adults care about. A symbol of what he cares about and has accomplished in Scouting.

 

That takes time, eh? It can't be "pushed," especially by the "biggest" adults in his life (parents). It can only be "pulled" a bit by scouting friends and adults makin' the connection. "Hey, George, you're a great guy and a super scout. You've given a lot to the program. You really deserve Eagle as a sign of all that, so that we can all celebrate - and so that you can give the best example to younger guys. Eagle only means something if guys like you are willin' to get it. Your choice, but I think you should go for it."

 

Respect those kids who stall. They are the ones who are really growing up, and makin' Scouting, and Eagle, their own.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

Withdrawn whilst I consider Beavah's post.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[John-in-KC]

After reading Beavah and Lisa, ...

 

I asked for war stories deliberately, I'm in a quandry about such a young man. The practical experience of othes was a help

 

We'll make definite contact, away from the meeting, with the particular young man. We'll lay out where he is and where the "dates certain" are. We'll tell him if he shows initiative and commitment, we'll respond with support.

 

If he decides his spot on the trail has a good view, that will be OK.

 

If he decides to pick up his pack and move up the trail, we'll be there.

[ASM915]

John,

Is the lad into sports, high school or otherwise? My son used his conditioning and training for his Personal Fitness MB.

 

Does he have a summer job, or taking any classes at school that can help with Per. Management?

 

When my son joined Scouting, he only had 2 years and 3 months to run the gauntlet to Eagle. He now states that starting into Scouting when he was older, was an advantage. He was more mature. He knew what needed to be done when, and what the consequences would be if he missed his self-imposed time-line. He was able to finish off the TF to FC requirements in short order. He stated that his curriculum at school really helped and actually made the MB's that he did during the school year much easier to do and achieve. It was duplicate work.

He used school staff that were MB counsellors. He had teachers write letters to other MBC's. He showed other MBC's school work that fulfilled MB requirements. He thinks it is ludicrous when an older scout states that they are to busy to complete their Eagle. If they want it, they can find and manage their time correctly to get it.

 

DO talk with the Scout. Let him know it is easier then he thinks. Help point him in the right direction, having school and sports help to finish up the requirements. Family Life he'll have to do on his own.

 

Good Luck.