Scout Spirit - Here we go again

[Good Ole Buff]

I've read with great pains comments on both Scout Spirit and attendance and agree we should not add or subtract from what the handbook describes both to be. I have a young man that has been absent for about a year that is coming back to get his Eagle. Great! I'm all for that will help him anyway I can. He will not participate in meetings except to show up to talk about his project and has said he is only coming now to get his Eagle, then he is out of here. Knowing what I know it is still hard to say this is living according to the law and oath. Is he active? Yep, he's chartered so he is active. Does he have Scout Spirit by living his life according to the Scout law & oath? ..

[ScoutNut]

"his LIFE" not "his SCOUT MEETINGS". Big difference.

 

I think that a SM conference is in order to talk to him about why he does not want to attend meetings. Perhaps there is a problem there that you should know about. Is there a problem between boys? Is he bored at meetings? Is he bored with Scouts? What could the Troop do differently that would encourage him to become more involved again?

 

This could be a learning moment for BOTH of you!

 

[Eamonn]

Hi Good Ole Buff,

Welcome.

I'm sure you are going to get all sorts of answers and ideas.

Here's my 2 cents.

*Kind of a dumb question. But has he met all of the other needed requirements?

*If he has it does indeed come down to Scout Spirit.

Attending Scout meetings doesn't mean you have Scout spirit. Just as going to church doesn't make a Christian a good Christian.

If the Lad is living by the Oath and Law I would say he has Scout Spirit.

If however he is a little toad than he need to have a chat (SM Conference?) and maybe some goals can be set by him to show that he really does have what it takes.

Good Luck.

Eamonn.

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums also. I agree with what has been written already. We had one like this who, it turned out, had some very intense family obligations and he was making a huge effort just to finish his eagle. He was indeed displaying scout spirit and in a very big way, just not with the troop. He is now an eagle. He deserved it.

Have that talk with him. Find out how he feels about these things. Let him know your thoughts. See if any adjustments are needed. Then it's your call.

[Hunt]

I agree that I'd rather have a Scout come back to finish his Eagle than not doing it. However, I'm assuming that he finished his requirements for a position of responsibility for six months while a Life Scout (which would also probably satisfy the requirement to be active for six months). We can discuss again (for the nth time) whether just being registered is enough to be considered active, but few would argue that you can get credit for a POR if you never show up for meetings at all.

[Fuzzy Bear]

If you beat a dead horse in the woods, will anyone hear the blows?

 

The Scout Spirit issue comes up over and over. It is like being on a Merry Go-Round. It has not gotten us to where we are going but the ride has been kind of fun.

 

Here is another kink in the rope:

 

Since Eagle is the culmination of the Scouting experience, has he reached any of the Aims of Scouting? Physical Fitness, Character Development and Participating Citizenship.

 

Has he engaged all of the Methods of Scouting? Ideals, Patrols, Outdoors, Uniform, Advancement, Leadership Development, Personal Growth, Adult Association.

Remember, the Methods is how a person reaches the Aims.

 

Is he prepared to make ethical decisions and moral choices based on the values of the Scout Oath and Law? The Mission.

 

Is this adding to the advancement requirements? Sure, but I didnt add them. These are the standards by which we may know them.

 

When measuring the height of a buffalo, a good estimate is always pretty close.

 

fb

 

[SSScout]

"....the hieght of a buffalo..."

 

Thank you for reminding me of a Scout Leader of umpteen years ago. But he measured grizzly bears in his advice...

 

Still a good thought thumper.

 

YiS yet,,,

[packsaddle]

Fuzzy, I think we can formulate many such questions to ask. To me the problem is not so much in the questions but how we make the final judgment. To use your list as an example, if the boy met every one of your criteria except one, is that failure? Where is the line drawn when it comes to our judgment. The way I see this is that rank advancement is something that each boy experiences as an individual. It is his personal accomplishment and as such, I try to judge each one as that individual.

Scout spririt is something that can't be reproduced with a cookie cutter - it will be expressed differently by each boy the same way as it is expressed in these threads. I guess this makes me a moral relativist or something (Rooster7, you out there somewhere?).

[Good Ole Buff]

I really appreciate your input and experience. This is a 15 year old that has met every requirement for Eagle, including a leadership position, except his project. He has no interest in Scouts except for getting the rank that he knows will help him down the road and is vocal that once he gets his, he is out (at least he is being honest about his motivation). I have also have read with interest and agree that Scout spirit is what Scout spirit is, nothing more and nothing less but how can his attitude be consistent to living the law and oath in your everyday life. I want the rewards and dont bother me with anything else. Ive got mine now you get yours. Regardless of how active he has been in his Scouting life, this bothers me. I like this kid and have never given up on a Scout (Lord knows I have wanted to). Hes bright, a little shy, and probably going through the same demands that pull every Scout at his age. We have talked to his parents and we have talked to him and he is just not interested. Maybe he is getting a little of the message because he did show up for the meeting last night and we had a good long talk.

[Venividi]

Good Ole Buff,

 

I suspect that you have answered your own question. As you are closest to the scout, ultimately the decision is yours. From your description, he is good with "honesty". Sounds like you will be wanting to have additional conversations about what you expect to see with respect to scout spirit; and give him the opportunity to describe how he has demonstrated the rest of the points of the scout law. For example, how does he see how he shows loyalty to his troop and patrol when he doesn't attend. Perhaps he was very loyal to his patrol when he was active (or perhaps not). Perhaps there are other groups/organizations to whom he is showing loyalty now.

 

Demonstrate that you are a caring leader that wants to support his goal to EARN Eagle, and that you are not a "gatekeeper" keeping unqualified people out, but that doesn't mean you are a doormat, allowing people to walk over you.

 

These are difficult- best of luck to you.

[Lisabob]

If at the age of 15 he is willing to have that good long talk then that's a pretty hopeful sign. A truly disengaged boy wouldn't have bothered, or would've "upheld" his end of that talk with mono-syllabic harumphs. Hang in there with him.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

Requirement No. 2

"Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life."

 

Scout spirit is not some etherial concept that we, as scout leaders, need to define, understand, judge or even consider for advancement purposes.

 

The BSA tells us how scout spirit is demonstrated...'by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life'. That alone is the advancement question before you...it is not some subjective thought on your part based on your personal definition of what scout spirit may or may not be.

 

Does the boy live the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life? In your long conversation with him at the last troop meeting, I hope you took the opportunity to satisfy your curiosity about that question.

 

Troop meetings are a small part of his life (less than 1% of the hours in a week). 'Everyday life' is more about the 99% of the time this boy spends outside of troop meetings then the 1% he spends in or avoiding troop meetings.

 

"He will not participate in meetings except to show up to talk about his project and has said he is only coming now to get his Eagle, then he is out of here. Knowing what I know it is still hard to say this is living according to the law and oath."

 

Which points of the Scout Oath and Law do you consider him violating because of his decision? Have you made any attempt to determine how he may be following those points in the other 99% of his life?

[Beavah]

but how can his attitude be consistent to living the law and oath in your everyday life. I want the rewards and dont bother me with anything else. Ive got mine now you get yours.

 

Yah, I think you answer your own question too.

 

Mostly I expect the boy to think about the troop and community, not "getting Eagle" but "being Eagle." Not himself, but others.

 

As SM, you have to think about the same thing, eh? Not just this boy, but the troop and community. Is this boy one that you want to hold up to the younger boys in the troop, and to the district/chartered org./community, as being an example of the best in Scouting? Is that a good or a bad lesson for others?

 

Yah, meeting attendance by itself isn't a perfect indicator of that; a boy caring for his single mom with cancer isn't goin' to make many meetings, and may well be exactly the example you want to hold up for others. Such exceptions aside, it'd be hard to find another organization that claims to teach character by givin' its highest award to someone who doesn't show up, eh?

 

Nuthin' damaged Scoutin' in the U.S. more than making recognition about collectin' empty requirements however yeh can. Our goal is not to help kids get Eagle. Our goal is to help kids become men.

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[AvidSM]

I agree with SemperParatus in that, by definition, Scout spirit has nothing to do with attendance. That there is nothing mentioned in it's definition that would lead someone to include attendance. Scouting is not in your everyday life!

 

Poor attendance is certainly something that needs to be addressed, but not in the context of Scout spirit. People who connect the two are adding to the requirements - no matter what the reasoning or the justification is in their minds.

[Good Ole Buff]

Just to be clear it is not attendance that is the issue but his attitude of every man for himself. As I stated before, I understand that attendance and Scout spirit, as defined in the handbook, is what it is as related to everyday life. That is something that has taken YEARS for me to come to grips with and awhile to sink into my skull. I have also researched the 12 a lot to see what the official definitions are and was surprised that, while a lot of Troop sites will proudly list them, many dont define them so, to help answer the question of what part of the law I think he not living up to, here are five of the 12 directly from the national site, their definitions, not ours:

 

A Scout is Trustworthy. A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is a part of his code of conduct. People can always depend on him. (How can people depend on someone that is not there and is only in it for what he needs?)

A Scout is Loyal.

A Scout is true to his family, friends, Scout leaders, school, Nation, and world community. (It may be a small percentage overall but loyalty to Scouting is in there)

A Scout is Helpful.

A Scout is concerned about other people. He willingly volunteers to help others without expecting payment or reward. (Doesnt that include the Troop? He is looking for the highest reward Scouting has to offer, the Eagle rank, without a willingness to volunteer to help others attain the same goal.)

A Scout is Friendly.

A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs that are different from his own. (You would have to be present at Scout functions, even sporadically, to be a brother to other Scouts and how does it show brotherhood when you are just in it for yourself?)

A Scout is Kind.

A Scout understands there is strength in being gentile. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not harm or kill anything without reason. (If we treated him the way he wants to treat the other members of the Troop, would he ever reach his goal?)

 

I appreciate all the input and look forward to hearing and learning more.