Eagle - Yes or No

[SSScout 1616]

hops-scout:

Thank you for your candor. Way back when I was earning my Stegasaurus husbandry MB, I also was piled high with activity. Kept me out of trouble, you bet. Band, track, drama club, part time job, home chores AND scouts' (and the occassional ETC.). But the Eagle was almost automatic for me, looking back. The MBs were all fascinating to me, my folks drove me to the MB counselors ( not necessarily 'embedded' in the Troop) or at camp, and the rest just sort of happened, as my Scout career progressed.

I guess I'm interested in a comparison of THEN and NOW and are things any more difficult. My boy likes to kid me about how he has MORE history to learn than I did. And it does seem that there are more distractions to the 'straight and narrow' NOW than THEN.

 

But, ... see #5 above.

 

Just reading your message, I feel you are making the best decision for YOU. If the time will not allow, or you find yourself drawn to other means of growth, then Godspeed, and I wish you well. Don't forget to share your wisdom with those coming up behind you. I know Scouting has "done it's best" by you and you have given as well as you have got.

 

Smile and wave as you go by.

 

Now, about the rest of you???

 

YiS somemore

 

[John-in-KC 311]

HS,

 

As a Life for Life (oh, 33 years now), and as the Dad of an Eagle,

 

One reason to finish the job is ... it shows people who do not know you that you can FINISH A JOB.

 

My son is your age/grade peer. Right now he's looking at some music he bought for music festivals this Spring.

 

Completing Eagle...

 

... gave him a chance to do something rewarding with people he cares for ...

... gave him a chance to spend an evening with adults he truly cares for (a senior member of our Council, his camp Director and PD sat his EBOR)...

... gave him a chance to look others in the eye and say "I showed up."

 

True story: Our HS marching band (~160 pieces) splits into 2 bands for the rest of the year. Placement is by audition to ability groups. Son ended up in the 2d band.

 

10 days later son went to regional auditions. Placed for an honor band. Had ONE of the young people who auditioned above him at the HS come to audition at all, and had brought their A game with them, son would not be in the honor band.

 

LESSON: Strike out for the good things. You may not get even if you try, but if you do not try, you will not get.

 

Anyway, if you are locked into your path, Godspeed and safe travel. The road is never as smooth as we want it to be.

[BrentAllen 10]

Getting back to the original subject, if the Scout was convicted of a felony in the past year or so, especially after reaching the rank of First Class, I would have to ask had he not learned anything at all about being a Scout in his time with the Troop? If he was Life on the verge of Eagle when convicted, I would vote no and be wondering how he could end up in such a situation after spending so many years in the program. Did he not learn anything about proper behaviour, about citizenship, about making the right decisions on his path to Eagle? What a sad situation.

 

Oak Tree,

As I replied to you in another thread, your math is incorrect on the 15%. Your assumption is based on no new Scouts in those 3 years, which would never happen.

[Eamonn 61]

Have to say that I'm not very comfortable with the word felon.

We could I suppose have a long and heated debate about The distinction between a felony and misdemeanor. I'm not a lawyer. I do however believe that at times the distinction can be caused by a lot of different factors.

It wasn't that long ago that the English were shipping children over to the colonies for stealing.

Juvenile Delinquency is a problem,juveniles are capable of committing serious crimes.

In our small town we have a very nice JP. Sadly a lot of what he now has to deal with are things that in the past would never have ended up in his court. Kids fighting in school, used to be taken care of in house by the school, kids caught smoking or breaking curfew. The punishment in most cases is a fine plus the court costs.

Talking with him, we both agree that this does little to teach the offender anything, the parent pays the fines and sadly the repeat offenders seem to just keep coming back.

He tried to start a community mentoring type program. It failed because of lack of community involvement. He is now working with the County to see if there is a way that he can offer being a Scout / Venturer in place of imposing fines.

If and when this happens? I would think that any Lad who opted to join and reached Eagle Scout or Venturing Silver, would be seen as having turned himself around and the program would seem to be a success.

I'm not sure why? But when a Scout does something wrong or plain dumb, there seems to a mentality of "Go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00"

The theories as to why youths turn to delinquency are numerous.Travis Hirschi, who has done a lot of work in this area and written several books does content that groups that could strengthen the bonds were family, school, peers, religious institutions, etc. The social bond had four elements:

Attachment to parents, peers, or school

Commitment to conventional lines of action

Involvement in conventional activities

Belief in a common value.

Which brings me back to the Eagle - Yes or No question.

It would seem that if we really want to serve the Lad we need to keep items listed above in place. Handing him an award which is the highest award we can offer, isn't going to keep him involved.

But telling him that he is never going to make the mark isn't going to keep him involved either.

At the end of the day it will all boil down to us providing him what he needs and working with him to make a plan to see that he gets what he needs.

I'm not sure if in the other thread it became clear what he intended to do with the pipe-bomb? Or even what size it was? Or if it would work?

A few years back one of our Sea Scouts (who at the time was a Boy Scout) got sent home from a District Camporee for throwing aerosol cans in the fire that his Patrol was using to cook on. I'm sure that at the time he knew that he wasn't supposed to throw these on the fire, I bet he knew it was a risky thing to do. I don't think he intended to hurt or harm anyone. Somehow, sometimes kids do the dumbest things. This Lad was asked to attend a Troop Committee meeting, where they suspended him for a period of time. Last week he completed his Eagle Scout project.

He isn't a bad Lad, but the Scouts were talking about the incident and he was making light of it, I think in part to cover his embarrassment. I did step in to remind him just how really dumb he had been.

We work with each boy as an individual, we follow the guidelines and do our best to meet the needs of the kids we serve.

Eamonn.

 

 

[evmori 11]

I'm not sure if in the other thread it became clear what he intended to do with the pipe-bomb? Or even what size it was? Or if it would work?

 

I really don't think it matters what size it was or what it was intended for or if it worked. The only reason to make any type of bomb is to blow something up and cause destruction.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[nldscout 18]

Speaking first as a Judge and then as a scouter, my first question would be How would you know what the true punishment that he recived was and what the agreements with the court were. This young man was under 18 and in all the states that I know should have been judged a Youthful offender. In NY where I am, before his 19th birthday his conviction would be automatically set aside and sealed. No one should be party to his conviction or punishment status and you are not allowed to inquire about it.

 

So given those rules, you would have no justification for denying him eagle, because in the eyes of the public it didn't happen.

 

As a scouter, I know it disturbs me to have to do it this way, but what would your grounds for denying him advancement be?

 

Like Eamonn says a great problem today is parents not making thier children to have to stand up and say "I did something wrong and am prepared to suffer the consequences for my action". I see 16-18 yr olds all time that come into court with a parent and the parent always tries to step in and speak about how its someone elses fault, little johnny/jane would never have done this if his/her evil friends didn't talk them into it.

 

[evmori 11]

nldscout has a good point. But whether the public knows about it or not makes no difference. He was convicted. And maybe he was tried as an adult. And there is a possibility this was all over the local news.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[BrentAllen 10]

So, nldscout, if one of the 15 year olds in the following article was a Life Scout going before an EBOR in your District, you are telling me you would vote yes, because - how did you say it - "because in the eyes of the public it didn't happen."? I'm sure those shoppers at Walmart felt this happened in the eyes of the public! And you don't think everyone in the area would know who they were, and what happened to them? If that doesn't disqualify one for Eagle, then what does??

 

 

SKOWHEGAN, Me. (AP) - Two teenaged boys have been charged with setting off two homemade bombs inside a Wal-Mart in Maine filled with holiday shoppers, authorities said.

 

Hundreds of customers were evacuated from the store when the acid bombs detonated Saturday afternoon. At least eight people were treated for irritation to their eyes and throat or ringing in their ears, said Stephen McCausland, spokesman for the state Department of Public Safety.

 

The boys, both 15, were taken into custody after photos from the store's security cameras where shown on television newscasts.

 

Investigators said they identified the boys after showing the photos to teenagers at a McDonald's. The parents of one of the boys also recognized them in the photos and met with investigators, said McCausland.

 

Both teens were charged with criminal use of explosives and released early Sunday morning to their parents.

 

Authorities said the teens had made three other explosive devices and placed one on the roof of a downtown business and two on the lawn of a residence. Those three bombs, none of which had detonated, were being retrieved by investigators, McCausland said.

 

A store manager said the Wal-Mart opened for business Sunday and referred all questions to police.

 

[nldscout 18]

Brent,

Let me explain this from the legal point of view.

In NY, and I cannot speak for other states, before your 19th birthday, you are considered a youthful offender. This applies to both Misdemnors and Felonies, except for certain felonies like murder. You are tried and found guilty or plead guilty in court, your conviction is set aside, a youthful offender finding is substituted for it, all the records are sealed. No person is allowed to see these records without court permission, an ordinary citizen can not ask about them, and cannot view them. In the eyes of the law the conviction never happened. He has a clean slate, atleast on the first instance.

 

So your on this EBOR, here comes this young man, you think you know the outcome, but because its sealed, you don't know for sure. You can't ask because its a sealed file. The young man was advised by his lawyer to not talk about it. So like it or not, you have no proof of conviction. So if you vote no, what written reason are you going to give? How can you articulate as is required what he must do to improve inorder to pass the next EBOR. So lets say you vote no, he appeals, what do you say to national? "I know he did it, I just cannot prove it." Who do you think is going to win the appeal?

 

I know its a tough pill to swallow, I would not want to be on the EBOR, infact I would not sit on the board.

 

In the case of the 2 15yr olds, we may never know what the outcome is.

 

Sometimes the law sucks. But, I don't make them, I just enforce them.

[BrentAllen 10]

nldscout,

That may be NY law, but it doesn't appear to apply in Wisconsin. See below.

 

As for my reason for voting no, I would state the teen had been charged with a felony, and we had no proof he was cleared of the charge. BTW, a limited disclosure can be requested, and the defendant can request a disclosure. For me, the burden of proof would be on him.

 

 

(AP) HARTFORD, Wis. A 16-year-old student has been ordered to pay $38,000 in restitution to Hartford Union High School and local police after making a bomb threat.

 

The teen also was sentenced to the juvenile detention center in the Washington County Jail, according to the Hartford Police Department. It did not say how long he must stay there.

 

The 16-year-old was one of two students charged with making the Oct. 6 bomb threat. Hartford Police Chief David Groves said the teen pleaded no contest to the charge.

 

The second teen, Matthew J. Windisch, 17, of Hartford faces a maximum sentence of 3 1/2 years in prison and a $10,000 fine if convicted.

 

Neither teen attends the school any longer, said Michael Kremer, interim district superintendent.

 

The criminal complaint in the case said the teens wrote a note in first-hour study hall that read, "Boom, boom, boom in every room at noon, so be ready to die." It was dropped in a hallway and found by another student, who turned it over to school officials.

 

They evacuated the school and canceled classes as a precaution.

 

Hartford police and sheriff's deputies brought in dogs from Milwaukee, Outagamie and Washington counties to search the school. No explosives were found.

 

Kremer said the $38,345 in restitution will cover the cost of bringing in the Milwaukee and Outagamie sheriff's departments, $2,652 for lunches the school threw out and nearly $35,000 in lost staff time.

 

Windisch told police that the 16-year-old "brought up the idea of a bomb threat to get out of school early" and that Windisch told the younger boy that "it would be nice to get out of school early but a bomb threat wasn't such a good idea," according to the complaint.

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

So your on this EBOR, here comes this young man, you think you know the outcome, but because its sealed, you don't know for sure. You can't ask because its a sealed file. The young man was advised by his lawyer to not talk about it. So like it or not, you have no proof of conviction. So if you vote no, what written reason are you going to give? How can you articulate as is required what he must do to improve inorder to pass the next EBOR. So lets say you vote no, he appeals, what do you say to national? "I know he did it, I just cannot prove it." Who do you think is going to win the appeal?

 

 

I would ask. And all I would expect is a yes or no answer. And I would vote no. And the Scout can appeal all he wants. I would think National would uphold the EBOR decision.

 

Brent,

 

Is that article you posted about Wal*Mart about the Scout in question in this thread?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[BrentAllen 10]

Ed,

Only if it is by coincidence. I just pulled that article after a google search, to show how public these teen cases are.

Brent

[Hunt 11]

"The young man was advised by his lawyer to not talk about it."

 

This is very tough. I think I would have to tell the candidate that he should return when he is able to talk about it. What would you do if he denied guilt to the Board, and the records are sealed? I guess you'd have to take his word for it and vote yes.

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Was the purpose of the bomb to blow up a trash can lid just to watch it soar or was the bomb to be used to blow people up? It makes a difference. This is a question that the civil court should decide and not the BOR. I would allow the legal process all of the time it needs to make their decision and complete all punishment before making any decision at the EBOR.

 

Hops, Making the decision to complete your Eagle shouldn't have anything to do with resume building (*it is secondary). It has to do with a distinction that is part of your personal life as a youth/Scout. It is a symbol that you will reflect back on for the remainder of your life. If you fail to complete it, you will reflect back on that failure as well. If you have read the writings of so many adults right in this forum over your four years tenure, then you will know that they attest to this statement as well. fb

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

Fuzzy,

Based on the original post, this Scout has been convicted of a felony. Done deal.

 

Would it make a difference if this Scout was convicted of drug possession with the intent to distribute?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10