What is 'Active" ?

[OldGreyEagle]

So, once again we have tripped upon the concept of how is the term "active" to be defined in the context of the Boy Scout program. Here is my take:

 

I do not think Troops can set attendance levels to measure how "active" a scout is. Many point to the fact since the BSA doesnt define active for a boy scout, the troop is free to so, but ponder this:

 

Say in a single District there are 20 Troops, each with a different definition of "active". In Troop 1, you must attend 75% meetings and outings, in Troop 2, you must attend 75% meetings and 50% outings, in Troop 3, its 50% meetings and outings and in Troop 4, wait, you get the idea.

 

So, when you get an Eagle from each of these 20 troops, they are all Eagles, all on the rolls in Irving as an Eagle regardless of how a Troop measured the activity. Even the Eagle from a troop that didn't have an attendance policy other than the activity level mentioned in the requirments, be active in patrol, troop for 6 months. What do you tell a scout in Troop 1, that he cant me an Eagle because he didnt meet the attendance policies of the troop, but had he been in Troop 2 or 3 that wouldnt be a problem?

 

Nest Argument:

 

Now, I know we have a few Sea Scouts kicking around out there, and they can verify this.

 

To reach the Ordinary rank, the youth must attend at least 75 percent of your ship's meetings and special activities for six months,

 

to reach the Able rank, the youth must Attend at least 75 percent of your ship meetings and special activities for one year.

 

and to reach the Quartermaster rank the youth must Attend at least 75 percent of your ship meetings and special activities for 18 months.

 

So, when someone says the BSA doesn't define active, that isnt altogether true, the BSA does indeed define active when referring to Sea Scouts. It sets the attendance criteria and time span per rank. In the Boy Scout program it does not give any mention of perentage of meetings or activities to attend. If BSA thought a certain percentage of outings was crucial to advancement in Boy Scouts, they would have set a percentage just as they did in Sea Scouts. And nowhere in any BSA publications soes it say a Troop may define "active"

 

Now, do I think for a second some leader of a troop with a hard and fast percentage policy will read this, slap his forehead and have an epiphany thinking his/her troop is wrong? Not at all, I am aiming for people who havent made up their mind. To let them think about what I have presented.

[evmori]

The BSA doesn't define active for Boy Scout Troops. Although, the BSA does feel meeting attendance is important. If they didn't, why would there be an attendance requirement for Sea Scouts?

 

Here is a list of words that are synonyms for active:

 

alive, at work, bustling, effective, efficacious, exertive, flowing, functioning, going, hasty, impelling, in force, in play, in process, mobile, movable, moving, operating, operative, progressive, pushing, rapid, restless, rolling, running, rushing, rustling, shifting, simmering, speeding, speedy, streaming, swarming, traveling, turning, walking, working.

 

All seem to indicate some type of movement. Registered isn't on the list.

 

I'm not advocating attendance standards. But in order for a boy to get the most out of Scouting in a BSA Troop they have to actively participate!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

and where did you see me say a scout didnt have to actively participate?

[evmori]

and where did you see me say a scout didnt have to actively participate?

 

If you feel, and I think you do, that being active in a Boy Scout Troop is nothing more than being registered then why would a Scout in a Boy Scout Troop have to actively participate? They are actively participating by being registered.

 

OK now it's someone else's turn.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[hotdesk]

Being active can be defined (by dictionary.com) as "Marked by or involving direct participation."

 

In my troop we do not have a set attendance policy for rank advancement, because it is not in the requirements. Just like a Merit Badge Books states that a counselor can not add requirments, we feel that Scoutmasters/Committee Members can not add requirments to rank advancement.

 

However we do have things in place to help with active participation in the troop:

 

1. We have Pre-Election requirements. To be elgible to run for SPL/ASPL/Troop Guide a scout must have attended 2/3 of the meetings in the past six months and at least 50% of the troop campouts in the past 2 years. For Patrol Leader we require that they have attended 1/2 of the meetings and 1/2 of the troop campouts (during the same time).

 

2. We do more than just campout. In any given month we have Service Projects (we have 11 Life Scouts), Family Activities (once every other month which is a day event like haunted house, bowling, mini-golfing, etc.), and a prime campout. We do strongly encourge (through emails, phone calls, and weekly promotion) that the scouts go on the activities that they able to go on.

 

However, it is important to realize that scouts are involved in many other activities. Some may be involved in 4H, co-cirruclar activities at school, and/or jobs, along with many other things that kids at that age can do. While it would be nice to see them participate at a rate of at least 75% of the troop events, it is sometimes not possible. Therefore, instead of worrying about their participation in scouts and interfering with their rank advancment let's work at encourage them to stay out of trouble, do good in school, to have fun in scouting, and give them somebody to talk to when they need it. THIS RIGHT HERE is far more important then how many different things they go on.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, where have I ever said a scout shouldnt participate in troop activities?

[FScouter]

This is really simple. Any Boy Scout working towards his next rank could figure it out.

 

All ranks require completion of a variety of requirements. Typically rank requirements are learned and demonstrated in troop and patrol settings. Any campout (be active) has opportunities to learn and demonstrate skills required for rank requirements. Assuming the troop is using "skills instruction" as one of the 7 parts of a troop meeting (see the SM handbook or SPL handbook, BSA publications, for a discussion of troop meeting structure) the boy will learn, demonstrate, and be signed off at troop meetings (be active). Conceivably a boy could learn some of these rank requirements on his own at home. But to demonstrate and show his knowledge to get signed off, he will need to attend a few meetings, activities, or campouts (be active).

 

The upper ranks all require the boy to serve in a position of responsibility. SERVE, as in "be active". A boy cannot SERVE without being active.

 

So, here we have a perfect way to measure being active. Review the rank requirements that have been learned and demonstrated, and review how the boy has served in his position of responsibility.

[hotdesk]

There is one problem with determining if a scout is active by using the PoR as a factor. Boy Scout Advancment Policy states that as long as a boy holds the position (the title is given to him and isn't withdrawn) it counts.

 

That gets into the question of what exactly is being active enough to hold the position and how to take the position from a scout that isn't active.

[Venividi]

> Boy Scout Advancment Policy states that as long as a boy holds the position (the title is given to him and isn't withdrawn) it counts.

 

I have read BSA's Advancement Policy & Procedure manual #33088B and do not recall seeing such a statement. I would appreciate it if someone could point to the publication number and page number where this is stated.

 

 

[Venividi]

Old Grey Eagle,

What do you tell a scout in Troop 1, that he cant be an Eagle because he didnt meet the attendance policies of the troop, but had he been in Troop 2 or 3 that wouldnt be a problem?

 

While I agree in principle that an absolute number/percentage on attendance may not be the best method for measuring activity level, I disagree with your argument. The same question could be posed about any other requirement where there is differences between troops; i.e., if one troop has high standards for scout spirit, and a neighboring troop signs off on scout spirit as a "gimme". And is there a parent that hasn't heard the argument from their child that "Jimmy's parents let him do x,y,z, so how come that isn't allowed in our family?".

 

Some scouts will gravitate towards the troop with "easy" standards, and others will gravitate towards those that are challenging in the same manner that some students gravitate toward classes that give easy A's, and some gravitate towards classes that are challenging.

 

Venividi

 

[hotdesk]

The statement that if holds the title of a qualified leadership position for the required amount of time to meet the requirement, his leadership tenure cannot be questioned is found at http://www.cpcbsa.org/downloads/forms/pdf/advance_manual.pdf#search='Boy%20Scout%20Rank%20Advancement%20Policy' on page 37

[LongHaul]

Sorry hotdesk your link was to a council interpretation of National Policy it doesn't work outside that council. Get a hold of some back issues of the scout handbook. Circa1957 and up, You'll find that the wording for this requirement has changed over the years. It used to say Serve in a position of leadership to the satisfaction of his Scoutmaster. Then it said hold a position of leadership. Then it said serve in a position of leadership. Now it says serve actively in a position of leadership. Just having a title no longer fills the bill. Holding a position and serving actively in a position are two different things.

OGE yes, you tell the boy that he can't attain the rank of Eagle in troop 1 as long as the rules were made known to him from the start. What is acceptable in one troop may not be in another. I know of a scout that was awarded the rank of Eagle while being on the sex offenders list for having been twice convicted of sexual assault. The BOR that the troop chose to seat advanced him and the District Representative allowed the rank advancement. IMO Exactly what the requirements "mean" are just as interpretable in Scouting as the Constitution is every time we get a new set of Supreme Court Justices. In my troop every New SPL has a chance to make his case for re-interpreting the requirements up to First Class. Every Troop applies their "take" on how each requirement is interpreted. Active is a subjective term, active as compared to what. What constitutes Active is the decision of the SPL and the PLC with the guidance of the Scoutmaster. I will say that our troop does not have a numerical designation for active, number of meetings, outings, service projects etc. each scout is "tested" independantly and I now wonder if they are all held to the same level of involvement. I can't remember a scout being denied advancement because of not being active enough but I don't sit on BORs as Scoutmaster. I will have to bring this up to the SPL and PLC. The requirements while open to interperatation must be uniform.

LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[scoutldr]

What do you do with a Life scout who joins your troop at age 15, and never shows up for meetings due to "family issues" (divorce)? His POR was served in a previous troop (e.g. Scribe) and is signed off in his book (previous troop folded, so I can't confirm). He goes to summer camp in another council as a provisional and collects all his MB there. He is registered, but does not participate with his troop...in anything. What do I say when he presents me with his Eagle application? Has he met the requirements? Heck if I know.

[purcelce]

Interesting topic. A lot of subjective interpetation. So here's mine.

 

To advance in rank up to First Class the scout must:

 

Tenderfoot: Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch.

 

a. Record your best in the following tests:

Push-ups

Pull-ups

Sit-ups

Standing long jump

1/4 mile walk/run

b. Show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days.

 

2nd Class:

Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight

 

1st Class:

Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight.

 

The above indicates to me that the scout is "active" if he has passed these requirments.

 

Star - Eagle is where the interpetation gets a little fuzzy to me.

 

If the scout is working on merit badges, doing his POR (not just wearing the patch), and doing service projects then he is active.

 

If national wants to expand on the term "active" then the above is my interpetations.

 

However I do like Ed's take on active.

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Hi OGE,

I admit to being a little surprised when I read the Sea Scout Manual. I kinda put the Sea Scout attendance requirement with the being able to tie a cleat hitch, it's in Sea Scouting but I don't see it any where else in the BSA. Of course being the Book Thumper that I am I will stick to the book.

The Sea Scout Manual is clear when it states 75% attendance over six months. (Not to get off course but I hear the manual is being rewritten)As some may know I'm not big on Troop rules and stuff -Please lets not even go there!!

So while Sea Scouting does have it down in black and white, I see Boy Scouting a little differently. In a Troop we should be working closely with the Scout. We should be communicating with him and helping him set goals, his goals!!

Sometime back we had an example of a Lad who hadn't attended a Troop meeting for sometime because the EMT course he was taking fell on the same night as the Troop meeting. I happen to think that this Lad was still active. However I also think it would be wrong of him to take on being SPL or some other POR, which really kinda should mean that his happy and smiling mug oughta to be at the meetings!

A lot of things that aren't going right can be put right if they are addressed quickly. If I seen a Lad missed a meeting I didn't take a lot of notice, if he missed two I asked his pals where he was at? If it went to three I called him or went to his house. Once I talked with him he could let me know if there was a real problem? Or if he was just being a lazy toad I gave him one the very long and very boring Eamonn speeches -Lads came back just so they didn't have to hear them. - I think it's called effective communication!!

There were of course times when some Lads for some reason that I never really understood, just wanted to take a break?? And there were Lads who quit and changed their minds. Once they told me they had quit. The clock stopped running and didn't start again till they came back.

I don't see that a Lad can tell me that he has quit in January and then come back five months later and pick up as if nothing has happened. It don't work that way.

If on the other hand there is a Lad that just looks in from time to time, not really quiting but not doing very much. I want to know why? Is it something that we are not doing right? Is there a real problem? Again we deliver this program to one Lad at a time, we are there to serve him and guide him. Meeting with him, hearing what he has to say and not waiting for five or six months to talk to him will prevent this active thing from becoming a problem

Eamonn.