What is 'Active" ?

[Venividi 35]

Something that hasn't been touched on is that scouts want to know what the expectations are, and that they want expectations to be fair.

 

The scouts themselves know when one of their peers is approved for advancement by the SM & BOR for merely being rostered for the appropriate length of time and for getting the right number of merit badges. They are used to adults making the rules everywhere else in their life, and will likely not say anything to us adults when they see a scout that hasn't been at more than a handful meetings and campouts since their last advancement still get advanced because he wore a POR patch and completed MB's on his own. What we as adults actually accept speaks more loudly than what we say.

 

I have found it rather ironic when scouts that are the least active advance (beyond 1st class) faster than those that are most active. The lease active are focused on themselves, and spend a most of their scouting time completing MB's, while the most active are busy being involved in and running their patrol and troop, being more focused on the group than themselves, so do not spend their time allocated to scouting on completing MB's. I think the later have better deomonstrated the aims scouting is trying to achieve.

[evmori 11]

Ed, where have I ever said a scout shouldnt participate in troop activities?

 

Never said you did! My point is if you feel being active means nothing more than being registered then every Scout in your Troop should be an Eagle.

 

Being active is more than being registered.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter 24]

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10 -

 

Do you have any ideas about what "active" should be?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Geez Ed, I guess I can't buy a vowel from you. I dont see how just being registered would fulfill any of the rank requirements,requirements we both agree cant be added to of subtracted from. Nor do I think you can satisfactorily fulfill a postion of responsibility by just being registered.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

The issue of what "Active" means is a live one for me right now ---I just spent 45 minutes talking about the expectations we should have for a Life Scout.

 

This is a boy who has a mental deisability, "asperger's syndrome," a variety of autism as I understand it. The Scout is 14 and six foot and man sized.

 

His father has carried him through the Scouting advancement requirements so far, and shows an intent of carrying him through Eagle as well.

 

This Scout has very little self discipline and occasionally shows flashes of anger that can be frightening to people who witness it. He won't do any work on campouts unless his father or an adult leadere is standing over him, and usually prefers to just stand around when work needs to be done. On our campout last weekend, he failed to return to camp after securing permission for a restroom visit Saturday night. The Troop mobilized and began a formal search for this boy.

 

He was found socializing at the camp of a neighboring Troop. All the Scouts in our Troop were advised that the buddy system was now going to be enforced. This boy loudly objected that it was insulting to him and he would refuse to co-operate.

 

The next day when we were packing up, his father packed up his pack and the Scoutmaster packed up his tent.

 

Last year, his leadership position for life Scout was Troop Bugler. He performed in that office once at the Sept 2004 Court of Honor, but did nothing for the next twelve months. When I made a point of getting hime the opportunity to bugle for the Camporee and other chances to perform, he wasn't interested. Indeed, he is so out of practice that his performance is a lot closer to that of a wounded goat than "To the Colors."

 

I haven't liked this and the Scoutmaster hasn't liked this. But the Scoutmaster isn't disciplined enough to hold him accountable. Last month this Scout was appointed Cheermaster, with the understanding that he would have a song at each Troop meeting and plan a campfire for the campout. To support that, I prepared a short notebook with ideas for campfire planning and worksheets for campfire planning.

 

The result was that he produced NOTHING. No songs, no campfire.

 

My 45 minute conversation with the SM involved several topics, but the main one was how to hold this Scout responsible for performing as Cheermaster.

 

My suggestion was to hold a meeting with the Scout and his father, to explain that since he hadn't performed last month as expected, he would receive no credit towards Eagle for holding the office of Cheermaster.

 

Then the expectations for perfomance in November would be laid out. He would have the opportunity to decide if he wants to do that job, and offered the opportunity to have an Assistant Scoutmaster offer him some encouragement and help in meeting those expectations ---leadership training in how to make and carry out a plan.

 

This Scout has never had any authorized waivers due to his medical condition. I have seen him perform when he is motivated to do so, which is rare. Most of what I see is that he is constantly let off the hook and expected to do little or nothing.

 

Anyway, that's my method of deciding whether a Scout is "active." Have an explicit statement of what your junior leaders are expected to do and achieve. Evaluate their performance each month and let them know if they are meeting those expectations or not. If they aren't, find out what the trouble is and get them training or help so that they have a reasonable opportunity for success.

 

How does that sound to people?

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[evmori 11]

FScouter,

What is active in a Boy Scout Troop? Showing up for Troop meetings, participating in Troop activities, going on Troop outings, working on advancement, helping out with the younger Scouts (if appropriate). Being active is much more than being registered. And do you have a problem with the way I sign my posts?

 

OGE,

It would seem since being registered is the same as being active then the requirement to be active in your Troop would be met by just being registered. At least that's what I get from what you have posted in this thread. Am I wrong?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SueM 10]

Seattle Pioneer,

 

First, let me preface this by saying that I am the mother of an Asperger's daughter and I totally understand how exasperating it is to deal with them! So I'm trying to address this from both my experience as a mother of one, and also as a Scoutmaster.

 

I would highly suggest that you find a different POR for your Asperger's scout, one which doesn't put him out in front of the crowd unless it is something that he himself shows an interest in doing. Try something like the troop Librarian, where he can work by himself. Most Asperger's kids have a very narrow range of interests, but when they do zero in on something, it's almost an obsession. One of main characteristics of Asperger's Syndrome revolves around social inability..they can not read or relate to other people. I would also NOT try to force this boy to look you in the eye when you are talking to him...it can actually be painful for them to do that. This boy is not doing these thing deliberately...his brain is wired differently than normal. Believe me though, you are not wasting your time with him. Many of these kids are so alone in life, that even just providing him the opportunity to fit in in ANY group can often mean all the difference in the world to them..in some cases, feeling accepted -anywhere- can mean the difference between life and death to them!! They want to make a contribution in life. If you would like to understand how to better motivate this scout, I would suggest that you try and learn more about Asperger's...there are many wonderful resources on the internet and sites like wrongplanet.net where you can read things that Asperger's write about themselves and how and what they feel.

 

We as adults are usually involved in scouting because we want to make a difference in the lives of boys..and you have a wonderful opportunity to make a real difference in one life here! It will be tough but it's worth the effort!

 

Sue M.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

yes Ed, you are wrong

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hello Sue--

 

 

Thanks for the comments, and encouragement.

 

 

I have worked with this Scout for more than a year now. He attends most troop meetings and outings, and so does his father, who is a doting father and a pretty sophisticated person (journalist).

 

The boy is intensely interested in music, and says he has aspirations to be in entertainment. He also demonstrates an interest in being a leader from time to time. When I suggested that our one patrol troop needed a cheermaster to plan and lead entertainment and campfires, the Patrol Leader naturally thought of appointing this boy to that position.

 

And it was exactly because this was keyed to the boys interests that I had, and have, hopes that he will learn to do the job. As I observe it, this boy is coddled by his parents and in the Scout Troop, and not held responsible for doing much of anything. Personally, I think he's better than that low standard, and I'd like to create an environment in which he could do his best. He might suprise himself and other people, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

The campaign to accomplish this began last month with his appointment as Cheermaster. I then made up a notebook of material on campfire planning including worksheets on how to plan a campfire in detail. I gave that workbook to the boy and explained that we needed to have a campfire planned for our Oct 29-30 camping trip. His father then supported that plan by saying, Well, I guess we know what we need to do."

 

The result was nothing. By itself, that doesn't discourage me. It simply means we ought to go back and explore with this boy why things didn't get done and figure out what kind of support he needs to get these kinds of tasks accomplished. I'd be glad to have an Assistant Scoutmaster or his father work with him to provide the structure he might need to accomplish this kind of task.

 

And he loves to sing and perform. Carrying out the plan should be the least of the problem. Getting the planning done is the hard part.

 

However, the Scoutmaster wants to intervene and discuss things with him. That's fine, but it cuts me out and the Scoutmaster has \about the same ability to plan things out as this Scout, unfortunately. He may well simply be permitted to drift on to becoming an Eagle Scout, with other people doing most of the work for him.

 

In my view, that's sad. He's headed for a world that will make him very unhappy with his current skills and attitudes.

 

 

Anyway, I've given this Scout my best shot.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[Hunt 11]

This whole issue of "active" gives me agita, but we're facing it too, so let me take a run at it.

First of all, the requirements for Star, Life and Eagle all require a scout to be "active" in the troop and patrol for a specified period. Thus, obviously, insisting that the scout really be active is not adding to requirements--it IS the requirement.

The problem is, what does it mean?

It simply can't mean "registered," and I don't think anybody really believes that--although some may think you can't make any further judgement if a Scout is registered.

But it seems to me that there are several possible approaches to this. First, a troop or a SM could have a very definite idea of what "active" means--ie, since it's the opposite of "inactive," it should mean attendance at least half the time. Whether that's a written or unwritten rule, it's something that has general applicability and can be known in advance.

A second approach would be for the SM to make a subjective judgement after the fact about whether the scout has been active "enough" to warrant advancement. This is obviously undesirable for many reasons.

The third approach is to personalize activity expectations with the scout before each new rank period. Thus, you can adjust what you consider "active" by considering the needs and circumstances of a particular scout. Thus, for example, a scout whose attendance is often disrupted because of custody issues might get particular consideration. The downside here is that it may be perceived as unfair by scouts.

I see upsides and downsides of each of these approaches (well, I don't really see upsides for the subjective after-the-fact approach). There's a real advantage to understanding up front what must be done to achieve a requirement--there's no ambiguity about the number of merit badges you need. It is also desirable for these requirements to be as standard as possible from troop to troop.

Bottom line? I wish BSA would address this issue in a FAQ and give more guidance. It would really help. If I were writing it, the following is what I would write(which may or may not be what BSA or anybody else would do):

Q: What is meant by "active" in the rank requirements?

A: "Active" means being present and contributing to the unit in its meetings and activities. As a rule of thumb, a scout isn't "active" for rank advancement purposes if he is not present at least half of the time during a given period. The SM and BOR should explain this expectation to each scout as he embarks on a new rank. The SM and BOR may take into account particular circumstances, issues, and needs of a particular scout that may require a different understanding of "active." This should be clearly explained to the Scout before he embarks on the new rank."

[SueM 10]

What I don't understand is why is "active" spelled out in the lower ranks where they much attend 5 activities (Per rank) outside of meetings to go up in rank, but then all of a sudden that changes at star??

 

sue m.

[FScouter 24]

It would be a big mistake to determine and publish a definition of active.

 

Consider our mission to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

It would be far easier for adults if BSA would just spell it out for us. Boys dont learn how to make ethical and moral choices when adults dictate to them regulations from the BSA rule book. By reading to them out of the rule book, we lose the opportunity to teach.

 

It would be far better for us to teach a boy how to decide for himself what active really means. Teach him how he has the tools in the Scout Oath and Law to find the answer. Teach him how to use his mind, to understand, and to make an ethical choice.

 

This is an important lesson for a boy. This is how we fulfill the mission.

[Hunt 11]

Fscouter, would you extend that same philosophy to other requirements for rank advancement? For example, wouldn't it be better, by your logic, if we dropped the necessity for the Scoutmaster to approve service projects? And why don't we let the scout choose what merit badges to earn for Eagle? Why are we making a list, and giving up this opportunity to teach?

It seems to me that we have a number of requirements that have extremely rigid, prescribed requirements (like required merit badges and time limits), and a number of apparently subjective requirements with little guidance about what they mean ("active" "serve actively" and "Scout Spirit.") No matter what we teach, ultimately it is up to an adult to make a decision whether a scout has met the requirement or not. What's more, what are you going to teach? BSA materials don't give you much guidance on what they consider the ethical choice in this matter--if a scout asked you, "Mr. FScouter, what commitment level do you think equates to being active?"--are you just going to ask him what he thinks? What will you teach?

[evmori 11]

It would be a big mistake to determine and publish a definition of active.

 

You could be correct, FScouter. And along that line of thinking and since the BSA doesn't define "active" what's wrong with each unit determining their own definition of active as long as there is no violation of any BSA rules or regs? By the unit I meant the adult leadership along with the PLC.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SeattlePioneer 144]

In my view, the Scout and Scoutmaster should define the expectations for activity as a part of the Scoutmaster conference or as needed.

 

I see no reason why such expectations shouldn't vary to meet the differing needs and situations of different Scouts. And they should vary depending on the rank the boy will be working on.

 

A scoutmaster is expected to use good judgerment in dealing with Scouts --- that is both his privilege and obligation. In deciding on thoser expectations, the aim should be to challenge each boy to do his best.

 

 

Seattle Pioneer