DLChris71

DLChris: My moral code tells me that discriminating against people based upon who they love is immoral and wrong.

The BSA tells me that my moral code is not as important as someone else's moral code which holds that we should judge and ban people based upon who they love.

Why is my moral code inferior? It comes from the same basic principles as the other guy's.

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Your problem is not that your moral code is inferior or the BSA's is superior. It is that you wish to participate in BSA activities and want the BSA to change it's moral code to suit your own moral code.

DLChris71 - "As to other scouting organizations, I don't concern myself with actions of organizations I'm not affiliated with." BSA is part of the WOSM (just like the other organizations I mentioned). BSA at the last World Conference blocked a motion calling (among other human rights issues) for equal rights for LGBT people.

I'm a Scout, I'm part of the worldwide family of Scouts, so to me anything done in Scouting's name is my business.

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Duncan,

If you go to see a cow, you should expect to hear it moo.

I commend you on your allegiance to scouting. As such I suspect you respect the process of the vote at the World Council, if not the outcome?

Activist aren't always right. They sometimes win and they sometimes lose.

From what I recall they can only win in the context of the shared majority that giving into their campaign is in sync with their moral code.

Vietnam War, Death Penalty, ERA, Abortion Rights, Civil Rights, Environmentalism, 1st Amendment, 2nd Amendment. Some wins, some losses, some still in conflict. Which is which depends on your perspective.

Will BSA ever allow homosexuals and atheists in? Only to the extent that the shared moral code is in sync with that event. I'm doubtful.

We are at a time where it is not criminal to be a homosexual. We are at a time when homosexuals receive some additional legal protections. We are at a time when homosexuals can, with some trouble, enter into some sort of civil relationship with their partner. We are at a time when, quite rightly, no person should be assaulted or intimidated for any reason. I think that is about as in sync as your going to get with the common moral code. The rest remains with the individual private institutions.

The viability of an institution is in its code, which is what makes it. As I have said before if an institution is going to blow around with which ever the way the wind blows its not going to live. It will just be some other organization that wanted everybody to like us. Like I said universal acceptance is unlikely.

"Where's Collin?"

This was actually said during our pinewood derby. And after a 15 minutes we found him, another cub, and a webelos off in the woods trying to climb an abandoned, derelict tree house...the woods of course being off limits.

The most dangerous thing are those pointy spikes people have on their desk to stick notes on, usually 5-6" long. Horrible thing to have around while changing a ceiling light bulb.

LB- In theological terms there is usually no difference between one sin and another sin. Something is immoral or it isn't. Go or no go. No difference between a little white lie and a big fat lie.

Duncan- "Morally straight"...no I'm not referring to sexual preference. I believe the term means that one stays on a moral course set forth by their religious teachings. Now some COs like the Lutheran Church will ordain a homosexual pastor and host a Boy Scout troop...thus making it possible that an IH and COR could be homosexual, theoretically. That's their moral course. I'm not sure what BSA would do if that were to become public knowledge.

People that don't agree with the Lutheran position are free to choose other churches and other troops.

It does impress me though to what extent activist will go to gain acceptance and in turn attempt to trample the views of others.

As to other scouting organizations, I don't concern myself with actions of organizations I'm not affiliated with. Scouting organizations were created under a common theme. A scout from Indonesia would be the same to me as one from England. I would just suggest that the two keep the conversation on scouting, as that is their common interest. That is we should leave proselytizing to others.(This message has been edited by dlchris71)

A scout is obedient to God, a scout pledges to do his duty to God, keep himself morally straight, reverent and clean in body, mind, and act.

If we take all of the people of the world, stuff them in the room, then there just will not be a consensus on what is moral and what is a duty to God. What is obedience to God? In fact I suspect there would be absolute anarchy. However a many faiths believe that homosexuality is immoral.

So we have one group that is taking part in an act and another group that says that it's immoral. Who's right? The group taking part in the act says that they are not harming anyone, that they are benign, that except for this one thing that they do, which they say is not wrong, they are upstanding people. But to the other group it's not so simple. To accept that there is nothing wrong with the act means that they are going to pick and choose which parts of their religion are enforceable and which are not. For the religious, if we don't agree with all portions of our faith then that means we can really pick and choose what is and isn't moral.

A code of morality can not stand if we pick and choose.

Now depending on your faith sin or immorality exists in all people. Every person has the potential for great evil. Depending on your faith then a moral code must exist in order to distinguish right and wrong. I've never been able to sit down with an atheist to find out where they think their moral code comes from, that point has always been a minor interest to me.

So, it has been said that BSA doesn't "discriminate" against other immoral acts. But what then about the criminal background check, the approval of the CO, the approval of the committee. If a person is an active thief, even a boy, isn't he brought up before the Committee, or turned over to the police if they refuse to repent. How many of us would let a drunk, drive our kids to events or lead a meeting if they showed up drunk? Adultery and homosexuality are no longer, for the most part, criminalized. But every time I hear about adultery on these forums taking place between scouters/parents I hear nothing about positive outcomes. If a CO hears about adultery, especially a situation that disrupts the unit, wouldn't they remove the offending people.

Basically to some people when you say:

homosexuality = okay

Other people by their faith and religious beliefs here:

homosexuality = immoral

So it doesn't work out:

immoral = okay

Yes, one day perhaps the a significant portion of the nation will be what is now considered immoral. But when a nation or a people start to change the meaning of morality then there will be consequences. Shake the box and pull out which sin is okay and you may find that others come out or one that you don't like comes out. A person who has a moral code will often have a hard time standing by that moral code. He may meet someone or even work for someone that is immoral. He may have his own moral weakness that is different, but he fights against acting on it because it goes against his moral code.

I think a moral code is a hard line. People can say all they like that someone who has a moral code, well if they only were more enlightened or were to receive bribes, they would change their moral code. Isn't that sad. Isn't that sad that people would try and corrupt other people's morality. Isn't it sad when the recovering alcoholic's own family offers him a drink, or a reformed criminal isn't given a job to re-establish themselves in, or a drug dealer offers a child free drugs.

I get it. Believe me I do. Homosexuals would like to go through life appreciated for who they are and what they do. I understand. So do thieves, liars, and murderers too. Everyone wants to be accepted. Immoral and moral both. And one way or the other everyone finds acceptance and support, but no one finds universal support regardless of who they are. And I can't honestly say everyone deserves universal support.

I don't know about an SM, but as a parent "it's a secret" will get me going.

I support the BSA position on this matter. I also agree with Beavah that I consider the boy to be the victim in this situation.

DS- I too personally like the summit with the vista...though these days its a hard thing to find. Some times we find a sunset over a pond or river, or quietness of the dark path. Well I can only hope a trail is found by your troop. But remember the easy training hikes of 10 miles are just that, training. You want fancy views from the passes in the Grand Tetons you need to get the boys in shape. I am definitely against track hikes, but there are plenty of good opportunities around the country for interesting easy-moderated hikes.

By the way, my Webelos son did a 3 mile hike yesterday as part of his Outdoorsman and lived and has easily done 6 miles with a 15 pound pack. And you guys are telling me a boy scout can't do 10 miles? Geez.

Deaf- a 10 mile hike is a preparation hike, or can be depending on where you are and what gear you take. Certainly a 10 mile hike can take 3.5-6 hours and can be done in an urban setting or on a trail rated as easy. The weight of gear total would certainly be less than 10 pounds including water. Though I acknowledge not everyone could do a 10 mile hike the majority of boys should be able to do it.

Such trails near Rochester include Genesse Riverway Trail. A little research could probably net you several trails rated easy to moderate.

By setting a standard, yes BSA is exclusionary. The day that BSA becomes universally inclusive is the day it stops being BSA and we can all join Camp Fire USA, or form another exclusive organization that will need to exist on its own merits.

That's the thing though isn't it. I don't know about things in England, but over here in the states we don't go around promoting groups as "inclusive". Most institutions are promoted on the merits of their program. Inclusive is often a corrupted idea promoted by people outside organizations, a warped sense of fairness. Stating that because some institution runs a program that it shouldn't have some standard (ethical, moral, religious, etc.), because it would exclude people who don't identify with those standards. So basically the institution is wrong for existing and for having spent years building goodwill and efforts into promoting citizenship and good works.

Because some individual, who does not ascribe to the standards of the institution, but does want to ride that institutions good name to promote their own different values rather than forming their own institution on its own merits. And why do they want to "ride the coat tails" of the institution that they don't agree with. Because they know that the vast majority of the public would otherwise be indifferent to their new fabrication.

But if they get the old classical institution to only just change it's beliefs, it's mantra, they can slip on the coat of the establishment and champion what ever value system they like until such time as the old classical institution disintegrates. It's not a matter of the body changing, it's a matter of something viral pounding on the exterior of the body trying to invade it, corrupt it, and use if for its own design.

I think that one of the comments at the bottom regarding scouting being inclusive vs. exclusive is more telling. I think that certain group think that being inclusive means that an organization should accept anyone and let them do anything they like. In turn they think that because a group invites all people to aspire to a standard established by the group that the group is being exclusive, hypocritical, and malicious. I think that's pretty sad, especially that being asked to aspire to a standard is cause for an accusation of discrimination.

Yes, I think an atheist child should be able to join a group, under the condition that they meet the requirements of the group they are joining. If they don't want to meet the requirements then they should pursue an activity in another area.

To be fair who's more likely to have contact among scout troops? The person that goes to or has been to roundtables, WB, and IOLS. Which is more likely to be a CM.

I know this is all about "work" and all but heaven help us...save the cub scouts from:

CUBMOBILE pileups ...Bear Elective 7.a

ELECTRIC repair...Bear Elective 17.a

WHEEL AND AXLE...even shows a wheelbarrow if I'm not mistaken, Wolf Elective 8.b

So I guess my son can't use the dremel tool that I got him to work on his pinewood derby car. Well glad big brother doesn't control what happens at my home...yet.

So I'm wondering about how long manuals these days are lasting? I remember as a boy scout I'd haul mine around in my pack or bring it to meetings without much thought to it. By the end of my time, 2-3 years, one of the covers had fallen off and it was pretty ragged. My sons cub scout manuals have been gone through a couple of times. One doing double duty as the Den Leaders reference copy and some of the pages are coming loose in the binding.

Do the spiral binders last longer than the normal bindings and what is the tradition or common practice for a boy scout if he has to change manuals (new edition or worn out). I would imagine that he might keep his T21 Manual aside for the things that were signed off on it and start with a fresh one if his first one gets worn out.

Do scouts these days even carry manuals with them on camping trips? Haven't looked but are there any Android/IPhone apps useful for scouting (advancement in particular)?

My sons manuals were kept in a cub scout book cover, seemed to save the exterior from much abuse but like I said some of the pages are still starting to fall out.

That's pretty nice SP. It looks like your pack is also blessed with a lot of parks in your general area.

Well without further details it sounds like you have established dens for each level. But I would suggest reading the Cub Scout Leader Book as it adds some more details. You mainly want to try and make sure that your Webelos have an active and interesting program, that they have two deep leadership and are going on overnighters with proper support, that they are visiting and interacting with Troops, and that they are getting enough support to advance. You also want to take steps to continue to recruit new families into the program and to help them get established. And of course you want to work with the Pack Committee and CC to do all of this and to help recruit and train leaders.

So how much is Ethan Draddy's hand in the new Under Armour experiment?

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that once a merit badge is earned/awarded then the individuals scouts electronic record was updated. So there wouldn't be a paper trail going from unit to unit.

I went to that site that lets you look up the tax records for non profits, and my local council was running a deficit. But it wasn't as big as the council in the article. At the rough estimate of 3M in expenses vs. 20,000 members that's approximately $150 per member per year, so maybe $175 per scout.

SP- The link doesn't show your area. Could you give your zip code and unit #?

There but for the grace of God, go I.

I'd hate to be 13 yo and have that happen to me, especially if he did 13 months of POR.