DLChris71

I have no doubt that is the case. This being our first year and a lot of contradicting information rolling around we'll just have to smile and participate regardless of the outcome.

@Scoutnut:

I can see that POV. So the situation is that my son has done requirements 2 and 3 for the weather belt loop, but not 1 (draw a poster demonstrating the water cycle). This he could do realistically in 30 minutes or less.

Since it only takes a week of recording weather data to earn the weather belt loop I think we'll just redo the work in June rather than use his March data.

Re: "screwy April activity"

Leaders guide: http://www.capefearcouncilbsa.org/images/stories/pdfs/2012%20Camp%20McNeill%20leaders%20guide.pdf

I'm not sure why Bears go to Spring Resident camp as Webelos. Maybe because Fall camp offers less Webelos specific activities?

Of course maybe it's a typo about Bears going as Webelos. It's not in the leader guide but is on the registration form: http://www.capefearcouncilbsa.org/images/stories/pdfs/2012%20Spring%20Cub%20Camp%20brochure.pdf

The bit is in the box "Special Notes" which is under the pack list.

Of course it says they will attend as Webelos I and doesn't necessarily say that they will get to take activity badge. So maybe I'm just confused. I guess we'll find out in 3 weeks.

I'm not familiar with your situation but there's no rule against recruiting year round or waiting for Fall Roundup to add scouts to your Pack. So if you're low on current Tigers future Wolves then see if you can do a presentation to local 1st Graders. Usually your source for future Den Leaders come out of shared leadership in the Tiger Dens so I would guess your in a difficult position.

Buff huh...

Yeah I got one of those for Christmas, not sure if it's small, but the one I got looks much smaller than the ones the scouts are wearing. Pretty nice piece of gear, but I've not had the opportunity to wear it on a real frigid day.

The main reason is because that on the uniform inspection sheet for Scouters it says that neckwear and hats are both optional. And as stated by another poster modern neckers from supply are not large enough to use in first aid as triangular bangades and thus except for cooling or display purposes.

I was in that RT with Scoutfish, me being the biggun DL from Pack 732 at the end of the table. I'm glad you spoke up about the issues you brought up and I was glad to second you on them. In fact I think I was the person that brought up the question (BALOO v. IOLS) in the first place because I just didn't know for sure. But I was glad everyone got the matter settled straight before we all left. I knew the IOLS - Tiger connection was out as I was "requested" to go through the G2SS to see if we could use canoes at a Pack event (nope).

As long as the zombie thread has been resurrected I had two comments/questions.

#1 My son is a Bear Scout and will be going to Webelos. He has had a lot of fun earning several belt loops. But once we got into B&G (our pack had it March 29) we started looking through the Webelos manual. So he's got several requirements for a belt loops completed, Weather for example, with all of his work documented. Loops are a family sided award any way, especially in our pack. So my ethical dilemma is this, would it be ethical or unethical for him to sand bag on reporting completion of belt loop requirements, or completing belt loop requirements, until after the end of the school year?

I'm a little grey on this because even though technically he can't pursue Webelos until after the school year ends the Council we are in says that Bears will be attending Spring Camp in April as Webelos. My over all experience was in Boy Scouts and so the entire idea of waiting months to be awarded a rank badge and waiting months to pursue the next is pretty alien to me.

#2 Who's bright idea was it to require Webelos to earn a requirement twice...yes I understand that in certain cases it's not required but like in Citizenship it requires you to definitely earn the Citizenship loop. It would make more sense to me for the scout to have to earn the citizenship pin, or if already earned to complete different requirements for the pin.

#3 More on uniform. At our B&G our boys were given their rank patch and next neckerchief. In your experience do they start wearing their next rank uniform now or wait till after the end of the school year?(This message has been edited by DLChris71)

I have to admit I love my scout pants so much that I wear them out of uniform...zip offs and all. And with the exception of a bad estimate on my youngest son's leg length they seem pretty tough.

In my opinion, in regards to the original question, I think that in the short term your troop should organize a PLC leadership retreat into the woods to hash out the issues. It's one thing for the SM, ASM, etc. to talk to him but it's another to have their leadership peers talk to the SPL. Really there should be an airing, among the boys, including the JASM about what they see as a problem and how the SPL is effecting each of the other leaders in doing their jobs and come out with some concrete expectations. And this discussion needs to be done away from the adults.

The goal is not to brow beat the SPL into quitting, but to give him an opportunity to learn and improve.

Most of the boys in my den have earned this belt loop. It wasn't my choice but they were very enthusiastic about it. My son even brought up the video game rating system recently and he is much easier to deal with now as far as balancing games vs. real life demands.

Of course it's my goal to get all the boys to work on hiking, map & compass, and some of the more scouty type belt loops.

At our CO all the chairs used at Pack Meeting are folding chairs that are in turn stored on a giant cart in a closet. At the end of the meeting our chaos is that parent/kids clear the room or stick around and help out with putting all the chairs back into closet. If you want to talk to the CC or CM you have to help clean up the room or stand around.

Usually, with out any prompting, a lot of people from Tiger to Grandparents get involved or clear out.

I think the main thing is to have a closing activity where the kids can be helpful to the program and just not occupied or left to their own devices.

After our Packs Den Meetings for example the DL is trying to gather their kit up and talk to parents and the kids just zip off outside. Chaos reigns. They go outside, get hurt, had one kid get hit in the head with a shoe, another kid had his uniform torn up...I mean if you think about it sounds more like a riot than a den meeting.

I guess that's something to cover on my to do list, to make the end of our den meetings more like the end of our Pack Meetings.

Nothing is ever permanent. I love West Virginia but you never know what will happen over the next 10 years. Who knows what goodies will be endowed to BSA, giving them an incentive to move major events around.

As a novice to this popcorn thing it occurred to me that if you split a large case into a bag with 2 bags of microwave popcorn you would get your price down to about $5.00.

I mean I buy GS cookies, liking the PB Sandwich Cookies, but I know that quality/quantity wise I'm better off buying Nutter Butters. So I'm doing it to support Girl Scouts.

So the question is whether there is a prohibition against splitting cases of popcorn?

Is that an open invitation to come see your AoL

I get to see one at Moores Creek I guess on Saturday night but it sounds like it will be a cool event at your Pack even with the falling out.

A pack scarf actually sounds pretty cool. Especially if it were cut big enough to be used as a triangle bandage. I don't think the scout store scarves can be used in that fashion unless it was a really tiny person.

I wear the BSA uniform head to toe, and I make sure that my sons also have the full cub scout uniform head to toe. When my sons got into scouting I passed on to them something my grandfather always told me, "don't do something halfway".

We're the kind of family where clothes get handed down and around. I've got socks and shirts older than my sons and each year I get perhaps 1 pair of pants and my wife, she gets a new dress so infrequently that I wonder if she times it with the World Cup or the Olympics. We splurge more on our sons who get something new as they need it or not necessarily need it. So getting the first uniform the first year, first for two boys and then for their dad was quite a sticker shock.

Now why did we do it? Well my grandfather's words ring down to me a lot. People make trade offs. I have tried to instill into my own sons that you need to have honor and commitment in what you do. So when they wanted to join Cub Scouts we knew as a family that we were going to commit to do everything we could from pursuing every event possible to every award. We have had discussions about what it means to be a member of a team, or a member of a school/class, member of a den or any other organization. Namely that you are making a commitment to the success and advancement of that organization. That as a student in a class, or cub scout in a den, or a member of a team you, for lack of a better way of saying it, "do your best" and "help the pack go". We've held that belief before cub scouts even came up on the radar.

I've been following this conversation since the 1st page and from debates to methods some of it I don't understand yet. But we joined in and bought in. The last piece of the uniform to fall was the hats. But finally one day we found room in the budget for a Wolf and Bear hat. I still shake my head over that. You know because they only wear those for 1 year and then switch over. I had told them we weren't getting hats until at least Webelos but I will always remember the looks on their faces when they got home from school. Of course we will only ever have the one Wolf and Bear hat in our family.

You know you look at it logically and you scratch your head that BSA would have at least 5 different uniforms. You could get to the point where you just view it as a money grab or something. I guess you could see that a boy is likely to out grow a set of clothes in a year at the cub scout age (we cheat and let them go baggy with a belt of course).

In any case we wear the full uniform (I have a drover hat, my one piece of rebellion) pretty much from head to toe including the socks. We like to camping, backpacking and hiking so the socks are not bad for those activities and I remember reading a story on here about a Commissioner checking for socks in another uniform thread, that's pretty funny if you think about it.

When I took over my sons Wolf Den, the den leader who was a great guy and a busy person, did not wear a uniform at all. He didn't encourage wearing the uniform and he really only had a limited time to prepare. So when he left the den and I took over I did want to demonstrate my commitment to the program. So I put on the whole armor of scouting such as it is and I encouraged the same ethic in the families of my den.

We have had one uniform inspection, and I was very uncomfortable about it, mainly to fix issues with insignia. In particular the horrid advancement recognition plates that were usually mounted on the wrong side. I have made a local change saying that the boys could put their advancement beads on a lanyard or necklace and that the wearing of it was optional. I have encouraged the den that Class-A should be worn at indoor den meetings and definitely at pack events (PWD, Pack Meetings, etc.). To me not having the full uniform on can be embarrassing. Not to a young cub scout of course, but latter on.

Despite my encouragement a boy in my den is as likely to show up out of uniform as in it. And you know what, I'm just happy that they came. Yes the uniform is important. Heck the thing can be as expensive as a suit for a wedding or a funeral and most of the time people would rather pop down babysitter money than drag a kid to one of those. I think some parents try and save them for the "important" occasions. So really I'm not sure if the boys in my den all have uniforms or not.

If I had the money I would uniform each of my den's scouts, heck the entire pack, the whole district. If I did would they wear the uniform? Probably not always. My pack I don't think has a uniform closet or if it does I haven't heard about it. I think that if one day my sons move on and we have been able to establish a uniform closet that would be happy accomplishment.

It comes down to commitment. When I see a boy in uniform I do see it as a gauge of his family's commitment to the program. I've coached sports and I see the same thing there. The soccer league provides the shirt and the family has to come up with the soccer shorts, socks, and shin guards and shoes. Pretty soon you can see which family has made a commitment and which ones will be headed off to basketball or baseball as soon as those seasons start off.

My job as a den leader or sports coach is to encourage and foster an increased commitment. We get together for den meetings or practice once per week. How much you advance or improve mainly depends on how much time the family will encourage daily practice or activity. How much that is done can usually be first gauged by the commitment to adequately uniform the child.

If a child doesn't come fully uniformed, but always comes early or on time, always shows up, always participates, then that is also a measure and probably the better measure of commitment than the uniform. But that can only slowly be seen over time. The uniform is a symbol of membership and commitment. The more members of an organization that can adhere to the standards the stronger that symbolism can become. So BSA sets one standard, which an individual unit can adjust to. The lower the standard set and the fewer adherents to the standard there are the desired symbolism and group culture can be weaker.

The uniform, despite cost, is an area of a units culture that can have the quickest effect on it. Because for $80-120 I can take a scout/family that has no interest in the program and at least make them look like they are deeply committed to it. Outwardly no one could know the difference. But I think that it, from my own experience, also can have an inward difference on that scout and his family. But it doesn't matter what a scout is wearing if the people around him, both family, leaders, and fellow scouts, do not foster them into developing through fun, adventure, and acceptance.

So the uniform is important, but not as important in the long run as a well run program led by people who care about and have made a commitment to it.(This message has been edited by DLChris71)

My CC sent me the info on getting the DL knot, which I have been keeping track of. To me the requirements are things I should be trying to do to be a good DL. I don't think it would be a detriment to drop TDL and WDL knots. I'm not a DL to get knots or patches anyway. Though I would be a very happy camper when our district reschedules BALOO.

I do hope to one day get a West knot...actually I'd like my entire den to get the West knot, just not sure if you can do bake sales and car washes to earn the total amount (for the boys to get it...I would just have to pony up)

Real camping is on a peak?

Nah, come off the mountain and visit the Croatan National Forest where following a trail can be canoe optional, that thing rustling in the bushes...could it be a bunny, a deer, or an alligator, and a summer breeze could be a hurricane or the mosquito swarm

But to get back on subject, here in NC some of the race tracks offer camping before and after races. Some of them like Rockingham Speedway do free camping near the track. For a big event it would be difficult (crowded) but for some of the smaller races it would be reasonable.

Your e-mail to the pack was probably a shot in the dark and it might have hit a mark. Someone that read it might have gotten a twinge but may have some doubts or may need an encouraging nudge. Of course the fact that you don't know who's all twingy doesn't help you out.

If I might ask, are there any parents or Den Leaders that regularly attend Pack Committee meetings. Any Den Leaders that go to District Roundtables or have taken Baloo and IOLS. I'm not familiar if a CM can view the new online training through myscouting.org but if so is there anyone attached to your pack that has recently taken any of the CM or Committee member training online that you haven't talked to yet?

Have you ever sat down and written your own job description...such as what you do in the current pack, how much time you put in, things you enjoy. If you have it written down it might help when you have to talk to a potential CM or ACM candidate.

To be fair to that thread I don't think that it is a matter of did CS Leaders go out and get the training, put in the time, and effort. It's seems to me more of a matter that in cub scouts the program is geared heavily into family interaction. That is until Webelos a parent is interacting with their child and grading them on the standard of "do your best". At Webelos the program transitions to the parent as a coach/mentor and requirements are signed off by a WDL or assistant. In these situations though the program is still family oriented and the WDL will hopefully been with the same group of scouts for a few years and be on pretty friendly terms. After all on most cub outings a parent is usually present, such as service projects, spring camps, etc.

But in boy scouts the standard is that the boy can demonstrate proficiency to a neutral (though hopefully benevolent) grader and not someone who is necessarily a family member or family friend. So the standard is higher for the boy.

Well a parent that crosses over with their son does need to be acclimated to this new relationship with the boys that they will serve. They will usually have gone from a situation where they possibly led out of sense of self interest, that their son should have a proper shake in the program, to a more subtle form of leadership and interaction. A situation where instead of blurting out an answer or nudging them for a result during a class for the boys to stepping back and allowing their boy to actually fail.

In a pack (or my pack) what is the standard for a boy to pass a requirement? One or possibly two times of demonstrating the correct skill?

So given that this is the world that a CS Leader works in, I don't fault a Troop for wanting to ease them into a leadership role in a Troop.

The Blue and Gold award with BSA Family written on it is the basic award, given when a family completes 2 activities in each of the 5 categories. The other patches are awarded when a family does an additional 2 activities in a given category on top of the 10 completed and correspond to the category that the family completed the 2 additional activities in.

Scoutfish writes:

"It's not that much of an issue in my district.

In my council? I honestly don't know."

Maybe it's because I'm so new but like Scoutfish says it doesn't seem to be a major problem in our district. I think perhaps some people just have their heads twisted around some issue that they can be dismissive. I guess there are people out there who could get some ego boost out of being a Super Scouter.

Most scouters in our area are too intent on putting in a good effort to worry about prestige. When we do pop our heads out of our own issues at a District or Council event I hear more "wow" than "sneer" from each other. Scout Show was a great event for that.

Cool. I was going to Lenoir Community College for a while and hope to swing by Cliffs of the Neuse one of these days. Of course my ancestral home is Louisiana and you just can't get any boudin here in NC, but I've lived here in Wilmington for over 20 years after a few years living and surfing in Nags Head in high school.

Like the last few posters I finally was able to get registered today after visiting since the Fall of 2011.

My name is Chris, I'm the father of a Wolf and a Bear. My son's Wolf Den Leader decided to withdraw from the program with his son at the start of December. We were given the choice of shutting the den down and merging with another den or having one of the parents step in. I was a 2nd Class Scout in the 80's and I'm currently going to school in my 40's full/part time as funds allow, so I had some time to dedicate to the program.

I believe that if there is an award to accomplish then pursue it in scouting.

It's been great taking up scouting again with my sons. We've gone camping every month since they've joined up as a family including Carolina Beach State Park, Lake Waccamaw State Park, Washington, DC (ok so we stayed in a hotel instead of braving a wet and cold weekend at Croatan National Forest), and Uwharrie National Forest. This month we're going to a place called Cabin Lake in Duplin County, NC and then my older son gets to go to Webelos Weekend at Moore's Creek National Battlefield. So we stay busy with it.

Glad to see there are a few active posters from our district here also.