desertrat77

@RememberSchiff, excellent issues.  Process reviews must be made.

While change is in the air, we should also change the product and dump popcorn as the item we sell.  It has been over three decades since the BSA adopted popcorn, yet it has never generated even a small percent of the nostalgia, popularity, and sales as Girl Scout cookies.  Not even close.

Popcorn has always been a dull product, with most folks purchasing it to solely support the cause.  Folks buy GS cookies because they like the cookies and to support the GSUSA.  I've never heard anyone ask "When are the scouts going to sell popcorn again?  I can't wait to buy an overpriced tin of old popcorn!"  I'm sure those folks are out there, but not nearly enough to make the sales movement worthwhile.

To paraphrase a comedian's joke about the cost of popcorn in movie theaters, "Why should we pay that much for popcorn?  Corn costs seventy cents a silo."   A joke, yes, but an apt example of one of the challenges of selling popcorn. 

There are plenty of other products the BSA could sell that people may actually want to buy.  And units could probably earn much more money, too.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Typically, this time of year the Pee Dee Area Council is “headstrong into its annual fundraising campaign Friends of Scouting,” Michael Hesbach, Scout Executive said. He said the local council receives 39 percent of its annual income from this campaign, and to date it has only raised 29 percent of its $285,000 goal. 

Hesbach said normally the Scouts would have raised twice that amount by now.

 

Many are realizing that over-staffed councils provide little value to unit level scouting.  The financial gravy train is over.

@Cburkhardt, I understand your point, but generally speaking, are council strategic planning committees up for the task?  It seems to me that many of the folks on the committees, well-intentioned they may be, will be more interested in preserving the status quo. 

12 hours ago, SSScout said:

...the long sleeve shirt was (I think) abandoned, the material became softer and lighter (and more snag prone)....

Long sleeve shirts were available, but I don't think they were very popular.  I had a long sleeve shirt when we lived in Arizona, and gained a couple more when we moved to Alaska.  You are correct, the material was soft, too soft, and this happened after only a couple washes.  I have two of my old shirts in a footlocker, here's a previously posted photo of one of them.   I've kept the shirts well protected; the material is pretty much the same as when I retired them in '81.

During my DL test, I successfully parallel parked a 1974 Plymouth station wagon.  It's still one of my proudest accomplishments.

11 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I don't know. I see more and more "Eagle factories" than "Hiking and Camping" troops. I am also seeing more and more parents who want high speed, low drag. And once they Eagle, they move on to the next activity for the college resume.

I agree, I'm seeing the same, but I don't envision this being a long-term strategy that will pay the bills.  As the brand is further cheapened, there will be less and less stock in the Eagle rank.  "Pay to earn badges at home, camp in your backyard, and gain a resume bullet" definitely has a target audience, but nothing with the membership and dollars that the BSA has traditionally counted on.

19 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available. 

The more I mull it over, the more I'm convinced you are spot on.  Even with the aforementioned spike in earned badges, and the rejoicing, it will be short term.  Scouts and Scouters will get bored and walk away.  The target audience for virtual scouting is probably quite small and recruiting will be a tough sell.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So Yes, backyard camping is probably here to stay. Parents will pressure units and national to allow ti since it  is allowed for this emergency.

Having reflected a bit since yesterday, and thinking over your comments, I am beginning to think National will be receptive to the parental pressure.  This is a quote from Roger Mosby's 27 April 2020 video (link below):

"Since mid-March, Cub Scouts have worked on or completed more than 115,000 Adventures, and Scouts have worked on or completed nearly 73,000 merit badges – all from the safety of their home."

It's about a) numbers and b) safety. 

https://scoutingwire.org/a-scout-is-helpful-especially-in-times-like-the-present/

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

Oh come on now... Scouting has been through wars, threat of nuclear annihilation, and polio scares. At some point, when social distancing is relaxed and public gatherings are allowed, Scouts will get back with their troops and camp. And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available. 

True, but the mindset seems different now.  The old school scouters that led the BSA through the wars and other crises you noted are long gone and many at the helm today have no interest in outdoor adventure.  Scouting at the troop level has become more and more like cub scouting. The BSA has consistently tried to reduce risk to the point of watering down programming and adventure. 

I don't envision a mass movement of parents and scouters saying "alright, scouts, let's hit the trail!" (Unless its a council property.)  Some units will definitely get back in outdoors but I suspect many more will find the Zoom/backyard/virtual scouting life pretty darn convenient.  I agree with you, the BSA won't keep or mandate virtual scouting but I don't think they'll go out of the way to discourage it either.

Added PS:  I hope I'm 100 percent wrong.

24 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Lone Scouting for everyone!  Parents sign off requirements; MBCs are contacted through Scoutbook; interaction with the Scouting community is virtual; no need for a council!  Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!!  Oh, National still gets your registration fee

National gets the registration fee, and yet reduces their liability/risk substantially. 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Exactly...if it was first and foremost, then the reductio ad absurdum is to eliminate the Scouting program.  All risk gone!

@InquisitiveScouter, we aren't too far from that now...the Zoom meetings and backyard camping trips aren't going away after the current virus subsides.  This will become the new culture of the BSA. 

@InquisitiveScouter, a stray thought about the helicopter parents you mentioned...one of my favorite discussions at a committee meeting involved a parent insisting that troop slumber parties had the same benefit as camping outdoors.  This parent would not accept any opinion to the contrary.  I agree, the parents often more challenging to deal with, and I'll throw in certain non-outdoor minded scouters as well.  As we know, the scouts are looking for a challenge.  Unfortunately, these challenges are often watered down to the point of meaninglessness by certain parents and scouters.

17 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

26 year Air Force vet here...my Scouting mentors were WWII, Korean War, and Vietnam War Vets.  Most have passed on...

They all had tactical patience with us Scouts...

https://fisher.osu.edu/blogs/leadreadtoday/blog/leadership-tip-of-the-week-tactical-patience/

Never jumped in when things went wrong (unless it was an real emergency)...just looked at us and said, "Well, what are you gonna do now?"

I see way too much jumping in nowadays...

Have you heard of snowplow/helicopter/lawnmower parents?  We have them in spades   The parents are more of a challenge than the youth!

Air Force vet as well....

Whatever I achieved during my career, and in my other endeavors, I owe in large part to those curmudgeonly scout leader/veterans.

"Tactical patience" is right on the money!

Of course, sometimes said patience would run thin and they'd tell us how the cow eats the cabbage, no feelings spared.  Excellent character building!

21 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 I see he is THRIFTY.

 

Ditto my adults being Vietnam Vets, and some still active in the reserves. Standard joke in my troop regarding surplus gear is "Government surplus, if it's designed for combat, it may survive Boy Scouts."

 

 

As you know, in addition to the surplus gear, the vets brought a certain mindset as well.  Great perspectives for adult life.

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

Desert rat77:  Amen to much of what you say. Please remember, too, the Scoutmasters and Cubmasters of that time (and before)  were generally part of the "Greatest Generation", they had been thru stuff they did not want their kids to endure, but still wanted them to be able to endure.  Yep, I slept under canvas, made my own tent/tarp of 8mil black plastic, duct tape and hand set grommets.  totally enclosed, bug proof tents weren't readily available yet.   6-12 was used, alot.  My M4 plywood packframe (Koean war surplus)  weighs more than the whole pack our Troop Scout takes out for a weekend. The GI wool blanket I used for summer camp is mothproofed and still hanging in my closet, iron on name tag in the corner. 

Greenbar Bill's column spoke to the Scout, not to the Scoutmaster or Committee chair or COR.   I read that.....

SSScout, points well taken.  Growing up as a military brat, most of my scout leaders were Viet Nam vets who were of a similar mindset.  Lots of GI issue stuff...the packboards, mess kits, skeeter dope, canteen/cup, web gear, canvas tents, etc.  It was functional, cheaply purchased or free, and if it was GI proof it was usually also scout proof. 

When civilian gear was bought by mom/dad at Christmas, or self-purchased with paper route/lawn mowing money, it was usually from Kmart or the base PX/BX.

Looking back, there was a sense of "don't spoil them...let them experience some hardship...."

Well said, GBB spoke to the scout.  He knew what patrols needed to know to succeed. 

@TimB, welcome to Scouter.com!

PS You are correct, the AT is still closed, in the sense that hikers are highly discouraged from attempting it.  Even if someone ignored the warning, it would be a tough go.  Hostels, shuttle services, food resupply stores, hotels, restaurants are almost all shuttered. 

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Scouting Magazine has not been useful for a while. Advertising expensive gear (anyone see the walking stick article and the prices), irrelevant articles (anyone remember the Scout Age family camping issue), Diverging from the methods ( Anyone remember the article saying it is OK to temporarily do away with the Patrol Method).

And Boys' Life is the same way. My boys stopped reading it, because it was not useful for them. Comparing what was in it when I was a youth, and what's in it now is like night and day.

Absolutely!

It's hard to stomach the gear recommendations.  Almost all of it upper middle class/high dollar Gucci gear.  What happened to the articles about pinning 2 or 3 blankets together as a bed roll?  Few families can afford the recommended gear, and almost none of it passes the common sense test.  Because we know that most kids are going to end up losing stuff or breaking stuff or outgrowing stuff.

Boy's Life...  Recently I was reading through some issues from the early '70s, when I was a cub scout.  It struck me that most of the magazine was written on at least a 9th grade reading level.  Full of adventure stories, lengthy profiles on prominent scientists, athletes, etc., blue prints for making your own gear, Pedro Patrol working through the patrol method, etc. 

@MattR, though it's not in the video, one of the changes will be the end of printed Scouting magazines.  In the May-June 2020 edition I received yesterday, Mr. Mosby wrote an editorial about this (page 2).  Henceforth Scouting will be published on-line.

As a side note, the last printed edition ends with a bang--a scold from the Cobbler Shaming Police.  Check it out on page 30, "Ditch the Dutch Oven Cobbler"

"You've mastered the gold standard of Dutch oven cooking; the legendary cake-topped peach cobbler.  As delicious as it is, though, the dessert delivers a ton of sugar in every bite, most of it from high fructose corn syrup.  You can do better.  Dutch oven meals don't have to be heavy with carbs and calories.  Expand your repertoire with these belly-filling, high-protein and vegetable-rich Dutch oven recipes."

To which I respond:  Scouts and Scouters that are active in the outdoors needn't worry about it.  They'll burn it all--protein, carbs, fats.

32 minutes ago, Liz said:

That pair is actually slightly different, but it might have the same cut. Those have the pockets off to the sides, whearas the pair she likes so much has the pockets right on the front of the thighs. 

I bought the ones she has now on eBay, just bought another pair in a size up, and am watching a couple more size 12s.  

The pockets-on-the-side are an earlier version (I bought a pair in '85), and I believe the pockets-on-front were fielded a bit later in the '80s.  I bought a pair of the latter, new at a scout shop, as late as 2007. 

The pockets/side version didn't have elastic in the waist band, if memory serves.

As mentioned, ebay is the place to go.  The shorts I got from ebay were practically brand new.  Didn't pay much more than 10 dollars per pair, with minimal postage. 

I still have a pair of those pants, along with a couple pair of shorts of the same design.   They wear like iron, are great in the outdoors, and were made in the USA.

@Sentinel947, I was painting with an overly broad brush, referring generally to all BSA leadership training...which is always ill-advised, I'll admit. 

Reflecting...trying to dissect or bullet outline to the nth degree something as intangible as leadership is bound to result in tedium.  A few key thoughts to frame a concept is nice, but it's just as important to get up out of that folding chair and do something that results in a) application of the concept outdoors, b) the movement of blood throughout the vascular system and c) camaraderie and good memories.

It's great to hear NYLT is a success in your council.  I suspect it varies throughout the BSA.  Our council's program is solid.

Great topic and discussion!

A few stray thoughts:

-  Uniform:  absolutely true Barry, uniformity goes beyond the actual uniform itself.   We see this dynamic at council and mult-district events.  There are units that are neatly uniformed, but take a closer look.  The patrols may be disaffected, disconnected, and standing around blinking like baby owls, waiting for the next command from an adult.  No spontaneous patrol spirit.  Not working together.   Lethargically going through the motions of competition, learning, hiking.   Adults, scouters and parents, chivvied the kids into full uniforming and some of them may even have patrol flags.  But there is no uniformity of scout or patrol spirit.   Get these two qualities going and there's no stopping them.

- Leadership:  this is an adult-driven mania.  Ironically, we've never had more "leadership and management" training available in the BSA.  Yet there is a huge dearth of actual leadership at any level.  Reasons:

1.  Leadership training is boring.  It shouldn't be but it is.  Sitting on a picnic bench on nice day and being lectured to is deadly, especially to the youth. 

2.  Many "leaders" in the BSA, self-proclaimed or showing multiple patches/devices of having attended leadership training or holding leadership roles, are not leaders at all.  They couldn't organize an egg and spoon race yet they occupy key positions in the BSA.  People see the disconnect.

3.  Leadership training does not produce leaders.  Actual experience in the field does.

4.  Despite the hoopla, most people will never be leaders.  At least not in the manner presented in our leadership training.  And that's okay.  Not everyone wants to be a leader.  There will always be a place in scouting for that First Class scout who will never make Eagle, even though his buddies are pushing toward that goal.  Yet this scout is often the dutch oven dessert expert, or a great instructor in other scout skills, and the kids look up to him/her nonetheless.  There are adult equivalents as well.  The troop treasurer, the 3rd string ASM...these folks will never get the recognition they deserve, but their long-term commitment and superb performance keep units going.

Solution:  Drop the powerpoint death marches, and the inane icebreaker/non-scout-skill-team building events ("who can build the tallest structure with 12 pieces of spaghetti, string and marshmallow?") and take a page from Scouting's past.  Scouts learned to be leaders by actually leading.  When they mastered the art and science of fire building, and then taught new scouts how to build a fire, they were leading but didn't realize it.  The old "game with a purpose."  And it's a heck of a lot more enjoyable than sitting in the classroom, too.

@SheriGoddart33, welcome to Scouter.com!

@alma, welcome to Scouter.com!

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Our class sizes will be limited so that students will get the same attention they would at camp.

None of my Scouts are real fans of online MB classes, except 1. And in all honesty he is being pushed by Mom to get Eagle,  so the online classes are really a way to make her happy.

This is interesting, even with liquidation pending and viruses (present and future) afoot, the BSA's strategy hasn't changed a bit:  The Importance of Reporting Smashingly Super Metrics to National.  Councils are still focused on quantity ("we've kept our numbers up, in spite of everything!) rather than quality.

Speaking of quality, I got a chuckle out of the "same attention they would at camp" sentence.  As we've discussed earlier, with overloaded classes and/or disaffected staffers as instructors, it's not a great selling point in some camps (I hope that's not the case at yours).

Parents are indeed the primary target audience.  I think most of the scouts would rather do something outside, even if it doesn't "count" towards a badge or it's in the backyard or city park.