CubsRgr8

ScouterKid, you posted that summer camp was boring because it's the same place and stuff every year. Check out http://scoutcamp.org/database/index.html and you'll find that there are HUNDREDS of other camps available to your troop. Many of them also offer provisional camping sessions, where you can go without your troop. If you went to the Camp Decorah near Lacrosse, WI, you're not too far from Camp Long Lake (NW of Milwaukee - website http://www.pacbsa.org/cll.htm) that has a provisional camper week coming up August 4-10.

My alarm bell is going off. When you said "they all sleep in the tent together" you didn't mean the dad, too, did you? No adult except a scout's parent/guardian may sleep in a tent with him.

(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

I really like your requirements page - where did you find the images of the books?

Packsaddle, speaking of the boys, the values we as scouters are teaching specifically include Duty To God. How do you handle that in your troop? Do you encourage boys to earn their religious faith emblems (which are offered by the national religious bodies representing Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, etc.)? Do you recognize those that do so in your Courts of Honor? Do you offer Scout's Own on camping trips and encourage boys to attend religious services at summer camp?

I hope you, and all the other posters on this thread, remember this responsibility. Scouting is not just an outdoors program to keep boys off the street. It is a values program that uses the outdoors as a teaching tool. And, as a voluntary leader in this organization, why wouldn't you want to promote those same values in our country? All Duty To God requires is acknowledgement of a higher power (deism, practiced by many of the founders of our country). All the Pledge does is make that aknowledgment.

Finally, "the Supreme Court has occassionally commented in dicta that the presence of 'one nation under God' in the Pledge of Allegience is constitutional" (footnote 12, p. 9130, Newdow v. USA). Given the public outcry and composition of the Suprement Court, I predict that this decision will soon be overturned and Mr. Newdow and his supporters will rue the day he brought his lawsuit.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

I agreed to be the MB counselor for Communications for my son's troop. Filled out the form, picked up the booklet, visited meritbadge.com, found some MB counselor training stuff on the web, figured out how to run the MB and, after investing a chunk of time, figured I had a game plan and was ready to go. Since the SM told me that none of the scouts had started the MB yet, I sent them an email, in order to get things going.

Yesterday, I heard back from one and was quite surprised to read that he had completed one of the requirements and that it was signed off! Say what? Is it acceptable for more than one MB counselor to work with a scout on a topic? Common? Shouldn't the MB counselor meet with the scout before he starts working on it? Is my nose bent out of joint for no good reason? After my experience with Webelos (NO! Parents may NOT sign off on the requirments!), maybe I'm hyper-sensitive. I really would appreciate feedback, cause the troop meeting's tonight.

You might find the discussion on this thread useful: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=10096. However, I would add that being a den chief is at least as much work as being a patrol leader. That's because a den chief does more than crowd control. He works with the den leader to plan and carry out his specific assignments at the den meetings AND he attends pack meetings and other pack activities. It is a significant time commitment. Therefore, he should (IMHO) only do one job at a time.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

What's a boonie cap?

A bead (yellow for Wolf, red for Bear) is earned for each three requirements completed. When they've earned four beads, it's time to award them their rank badge.

The real purpose of these kits is to encourage your Wolf and Bear scouts to continue working on their requirements. It can take the entire year to earn their rank badge, and the kits allow the adult leaders to recognize each boy's effort along the way.

Last year, I decided to hand out the beads during the pack meetings, similar to handing out the activity badges (which are actually pins) to the Webelos. That meant that each Wolf and Bear was called up for group recognition at three or four different pack meetings. Positive reinforcement really works. All but two of my Wolves and Bears earned their ranks this year.

Having a pack of about 25 boys, this was a realistic approach. In a larger pack, the beads and badges are probably best handed out during den meetings, to avoid the pack meetings lasting too long or dropping the goofy skits, songs, and/audience participation stories.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

IMHO, this topic boils down to how important you consider the role model part of being an adult leader. Personally, I think that is one of their primary responsibilities.

I'm not a pediatrician, or a child psychiatrist, but I think it's important for boys to have many positive male role models as they pass through puberty. So, in a cub scout pack, when the boys are 7-10 years old, I don't think it matters one bit if the cubmaster or den leaders are men or a women. While they are role models, the need for male role models at that age is not as important. Come to the middle school years, ages 11-14, and my take on this issue shifts.

Troops are structured with fewer adult leaders, who should be spending some significant chunks of time (troop meetings, camping, service projects) with the scouts. There they have the opportunity to serve as role models in a variety of circumstances. At this level, I believe it is important that scouting provide as many male role models as possible. At a minimum, the men leaders should at least outnumber the women leaders in the troop.

None of this is to say a woman shouldn't be a scoutmaster. Nor is it to say she wouldn't do a fantastic job. I expect that sctmom would be one of the fantastic ones. However, I hope that she would recruit a dedicated core of men to fill the ASM positions within the troop.

My observation is that the new scout patrol method really works. My son has been a member of one for less than four months and has earned tenderfoot, along with 6/9 boys in his patrol, and they're on their way to 2nd class.

Now, to your situation. Committees often get stuck in a rut because - IMHO - they don't want to deal with anything new. If yours is stuck in that rut, then I see three choices for you.

1) Accept the situation as is and slowly work for change over time. Reasonable, but will change happen? And will it happen in time to benefit your boys?

2) If you and most of the other parents agree that a new scout patrol is the way to go for your boys right now, then do your own thing this summer (with two deep leadership). Have patrol meetings to work on advancement, have some fun outings as a patrol, go to summer camp as a patrol (there are many that have dining halls and provide sleeping quarters, so equipment isn't an issue), etc. Meanwhile, search out a new troop to join later this summer (before school starts!), one that likes the new scout patrol method.

3) Same as 2, but end with starting your own troop.

Good luck.

tjhammer - I did read your earlier belief statements made on this and other threads. Nothing in those statements included a definitive statement regarding the BSA policy to exclude atheists as adult leaders, until today. One could have concluded that you would be in favor of a local option on that issue, as well as on the gay issue. And nothing in my earlier post was meant to challenge your beliefs or question the authenticity of your Christian faith.

I'm glad you support the BSA on excluding atheists. I'm glad S4A doesn't speak for you. But as Rooster7 used it, the word "most" is probably correct, when that includes people who are not in scouting. S4A certainly speaks for a large constituency, one that is very vocal. Your take on the gay issue is very clear and also very personal (see, I do read your posts). I see and appreciate the logic of it, although I disagree.

sctmom - I also glad to read that S4A doesn't represent you. I guess I see these issues in light of the concept that adult leaders serve as role models. Maybe I've missed the boat, but I thought that was a specific concept of BP's and part of why he structured scouting the way he did. I like the idea that BSA adult leaders are role models, willing to accept the personal accountability that comes with it (unlike some professional athletes). I don't see how an atheist leader could model your belief in a higher power. Take away the role model concept and it doesn't matter who are the adult leaders, as long as they pass their criminal background checks.

When Rooster7 says "most of the folks who want to open BSA's doors to homosexuals, also want to open the doors to atheists" tjhammer responds "There's absolutely no proof of this." HA! HA! HA! THAT'S FUNNY!!! I nearly fell off my chair when I read that!

Go visit the Scouting For All website and see for yourselves! The largest, most visible and aggressive organization in the USA to change the BSA stance on openly homosexual adult leaders ALSO states that it wants to change the BSA stance on atheists! The "All" in S4A specifically includes atheists.

tjhammer then goes on to say "I believe it is impossible to belong to Scouting without a belief in a higher power, and that I embrace a Scout's Duty to God as a fundamental basis for his entire Scouting experience." I'm with him there. His statement implies that he doesn't support accepting atheists, but, you know, he never actually says that. So, I'll ask plainly:

tjhammer, do you support BSA policy excluding atheists from registered adult leadership positions? I look forward to reading your answer.

Thanks for the link, sctmom. You sure know your way around the internet!

The recently revived thread "Sweden Speaks" got me curious about Steve Cozza and S4A. So, I decided to visit the S4A website recently. What an eyeopener that was! Then, to top it off, I read that S4A also advocates eliminating Duty To God. I wonder if Steve has ever read the WOSM constitution, which clearly states in Article II, Section 1, "The Scout Movement is based on the following principles: Duty To God (further defined as) Adherence to spriritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom." I hope WOSM and BSA never remove Duty To God.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Some (I hope MOST) Districts/Councils will send a trainer to your unit if you have a certain number of adults (4?) present. If this could happen, 1) you could get all the adults trained, 2) they would all hear the same thing, and 3) a neutral party (the trainer) would be the one "instructing" them, instead of you.

littlebillie, can you provide the webpage address for WOS that lists the "duty to God", as I tried and couldn't find it. Thanks.

Everything above is great advice. I'll just add to it, bringing to bear my years of experience (two!) as cubmaster.

Your pack probably has "traditions" in the areas of activities, ceremonies and the dreaded "that's the way we did it last year" . Since your pack meetings and activities should reflect your likes and dislikes to a certain degree, I say take a good hard look at them. Then, keep most, get rid of the one or two the makes you nuts (like having Santa come when most of the Bears are already skeptics and want to pull his beard off!), and add a couple new ones of your own.

Get to know your District Executive, Unit Commissioner, and (MOST IMPORTANT) key staffers at the council office. They all want you and your pack to succeed, but often won't contact you unless they think there's a problem. Mine have never failed to help when asked.

Does your pack have summer activities planned? No, well then, it's not too late to march in the local 4th of July parade. Just contact the organizer, then call the families and see who shows up. If only four boys and you march (in uniform, of course), that's still great public exposure. What about summer camp? Most camps have a few openings left, even if it's just you and your son - GO! You'll both learn AND have fun.

Finally, I have never enjoyed the luxury of a "real" committee chair. That is, a person willing to actually handle the administrative end of running the pack. If you've got one, I'm jealous. If not, then work hard to find one, because wearing both hats will wear you out fast.

Good luck in your new role, I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. YIS

Square knots recognize a specific accomplishment. For example: an adult serving in a specific capacity (ie webelos leader) AND meeting certain requirements may receive the square knot for that position. Another example: a scout who earn his religious faith award should be recognized by his unit with the appropriate square knot. This is a site that identifies most, if not all, available square knot badges: http://www.emf.net/~troop24/reqs/knots.html . YIS

I'm not Rooster, but I can't help but respond. tj asks: Is it possible for man, in the absence of any interaction with other beings, to behave morally or immorally?

I say yes, and I offer this attempt at a proof. A man is cast away on a tropical island. He is the only human being there. There is an abundance of food available, to the extent that his presence has no effect on the amount of food available to the native flora and fauna. The man is a glutton. He constantly eats more than he needs. I say his actions are immoral, for to waste food is wrong.

Morality does not require interaction between two beings to exist, anymore than understanding the intellectual concepts of "right" or "wrong" requires such interaction. To say something is moral or immoral is to verbalize our conscience - the innate sense of what is right or wrong in one's actions or motives, impelling one toward right action. When we listen to our conscience, we're listening to nothing less than the quiet voice of God.

I strongly endorse the idea that you need to direct a significant amount of your recruiting at Cub Scout packs. Get the Cubmaster and Webelos leader names for every pack within a reasonable distance of your troop (in my metro area, that would be a one mile radius). In your case, I would definitely include packs located off-base.

Contact them NOW to schedule visits to the troop AND to the pack early next fall. Invite the Webelos dens to go camping, especially if your District hosts a camporee (and remember, you CAN attend out of District or even out of Council events). If you have the right boys, encourage them to consider serving as den chiefs.

Now, what about older boys or boys not in Cub scouts? Make sure your troop is visible in your community. March in the 4th of July parade or hand out flags. Host a base-day visit for middle school aged boys in the surrounding communities where they can check things out. Make sure your troop gets recognized in the local papers. How? Send out simple news releases for each COH, etc.

Good luck!

bigstrohl said:

"I know for a fact almost all of my friends, some fellow Eagle Scouts,and myself included, sleep around almost every chance we get."

Just what do you do when you recite the words of the Scout oath "morally straight" - cross your fingers? Your attitude towards sexual behavior is flippant - haven't you heard of AIDs? I find your behavior (if indeed this is how you chose to act) abhorrent and I condemn it completely.

OGE said:

"I am not exactly happy you (bigstrohl) are proud to announce how promiscuous you are."

That's it? Not exactly happy? Just what does he have to say to make you unhappy? To condemn his promiscuous behavior as wrong? Would you want him as an ASM in your troop?

NJ, tj, and all the other supporters of allowing self-avowed homosexuals in scouting: is this your view as well? I'd have a lot more respect for your arguments if you condemned this promicuous behavior here and now.

BW - you said:

"Remember the CO head is not a member of scouting."

Why, then, did my DE require the new parish priest to complete an adult application form, in his role as CO head? If this is correct procedure, it seems that BSA wants it's CO heads to agree to BSA organizational principles.

I have a slightly different take on your situation. Since there are so many ways of delivering the program, make sure that boys are able to easily see how your troop is different from the other troop. Go to a different summer camp during a different month. Meet on a different night of the week. Emphasize different troop activities. Camp more (or less) often. Cabin camp instead of tent camp. Etc, etc. How will you know what is different? Talk to the other troop's leaders. Coordinate your efforts with the mutual goal of offering programming that appeals to different sets of boys. Our goal as leaders should always be to provide scouting to as many boys as possible.

You certainly have your work cut out for you, suzdvm. I realize now that some of my suggestions presumed that you were located in an area of the country more densely populated with Scouts. I forget that there are large parts of America that are truly wide, open spaces. Anyway, here are some additional comments.

Patrol ID - If your boys chose a standard patrol patch, I will gladly pick up six patches at the local scout store and mail them to you. Send me a private message with your mailing address and they'll be off in the mail tomorrow.

Overnight Webelos Summer Camp - I still say GO! Pick the session that works for you, your son and a friend and GO! If other kids want to go, great! Let them know what the required boy/parent ratio is and let THEIR parents figure it out. Regarding two-deep leadership, well, I say announce that transportation to and from camp is not a unit function. Any arrangements made are thereby personal. Once you're at summer camp, there's plenty of leadership to go around.

Crossover - Instead of February, crossover in in December - the soonest you could do it, adding six months to the end of 4th grade. And still include those flaming arrows!

Wish I had some ideas about your training conundrum, but I'm at a loss. All in all, it sounds like your Webelos are lucky to have you as a leader. Keep with it!(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Here are some ideas to pick and choose from to keep early AOL Webelos interested until they can crossover next February.

1) Have these boys function as much as possible as a patrol (name, patch on shirt sleeve, etc).

2) This summer, go to at least one overnight summer camp session just for Webelos (in my corner of the world, you could chose from sessions at several BSA camps, ranging from rustic to posh).

3) Get your BALOO training and go camping, just the patrol, once month as long as the weather permits.

4) Ask your Cubmaster to incorporate these boys in leadership roles at the pack meetings.

5) Participate as a patrol in as many camporees, klondike derbies, etc. as you can. Remember, you aren't limited to the ones in your District or Council.

6) Definitely visit as many troops as possible and choose one that will let them join as a new patrol, hopefully keeping their patrol name.

7) Start planning now for the ultimate crossover ceremony next February (complete with flaming arrows! or not!) that people will be talking about for the next ten years.

Good luck! It's great to hear of motivated boys and let us know how it works out, we all learn from each other's experiences.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)