CubsRgr8

What fun! It sounds like your troop has a great tradition going. Please pass on any other ideas, as my son's troop seems a little weak in this area and (since I'm still a Cubmaster) I see it as my solemn duty to liven things up.

Scoutmom - you're 100% right! And it was completely out of line for the Cubmaster to dismiss your concerns that way. Even if I (as Cubmaster) disagreed with you, I would never undermine the authority you had as the adult leader responsible for the event. It sounds like the Cubmaster needs to attend training again.

Bob White - Before reporting the circumstances to the Council Executives, why not a PRIVATE meeting at the local level to discuss this issue and see if it can't be resolved there (by everyone recognizing BSA policy and agreeing to enforce it)? Only if this internal method fails to correct the problem would I go up the ladder. Or is there an specific obligation that requires us, as leaders, to report these circumstances to the Council Executive?

Just what is the COR role in the District/Council? Mine has not received any communication from either entity since taking on the role in January, nor attended training, despite my urging. I would appreciate a better understanding of the COR in District/Council decision making, so that I could discuss this with my COR. Thanks.

I hope that you encouraged the victim to file formal charges with the police. Assault and battery is a criminal offense and it sounds like this boy has a violent nature and his parents are in denial.

Great topic, it really got me thinking. There is one person, and one person alone, who must be put at the top of the list of American heros of the 20th century - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Holding true to the principles of "all men are created equal" and of non-violent protest, he put the civil rights movement on the right track and ultimately paid for his convictions with his life. Thankfully, through his leadership, our country is much closer to living out an important ideal which the Founding Fathers envisioned over 225 years ago, a country where people are judged not by the color of their skin or any other physical attribute, but by the quality of their character. I'm holding my last Pack Meeting next Friday night and I thought I had it all planned out, but now I've got to rework the ending. Thank you eisely for starting this thread and thank you Scouter Network for hosting this forum.

I am not aware of any requirement that a troop attend its council's summer camp. My son's troop does its own summer camp and is one of the most active troops in our council. Also, troops can go to any BSA camp, in or out of council. If your PLC decided against summer camp because of inexperience (just a guess) or lack of equipment, there are BSA camps that are less "rustic", eg Camp Long Lake in Saint Cloud, Wisconsin. This camp has a dining hall and provides platform tents, ideal (IMHO) for a younger or inexperienced troop. The Scouter website has an excellent page on BSA camps, listing them down by state and providing links to their webpages. Finally, many camps will accomodate lone scouts, so even if just two boys go, their experience will ferment interest for next summer. Sounds to me like you're doing a great job for the boys! Keep up the good work!(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Rooster7, thanks for the suggestion. I do know some of the scouts in one of the neighboring troops well, as they came out of my pack. Before I broach the topic, what rank, experience, etc. would you recommend a scout have before taking on the challenge of den chief? Thanks in advance.

What Webelos Den Leader or Cubmaster would turn down a Den Chief? I can't imagine a better way to build strong ties between a Webelos den and the troop it feeds into. It sure sounds like a win-win situation to me, yet I can't get either close-by troop interested. Is there some secret handshake I don't know?

I received a lot of helpful advice in my earlier post on Webelos With Attitude. As a result, I'm pleased to report that five of my eight have now earned their AOL, and I expect another two to do so by our next pack meeting. As it will be the last pack meeting of the school year, this is when crossover would occur. Now, I need some advice about crossover.

One boy already joined a troop, two say they won't be joining any troop, three are planning to join different troops, and two don't seem to know what they're doing. What kind of a crossover ceremony should I plan for my pack meeting? None, and ask the receiving troops to conduct one instead? Have one just for those boys who say they're going to join a troop? Have one for all the boys? Frankly, I'm at a loss.

Why even ask this question? Everyone who joins BSA fills out an application that clearly states the requirement for belief in God. Period. Not the Hindu definition of God, not the Jewish, not the Muslim, not the Christian. Just belief in God. Why would anyone want to join who isn't willing to accept this requirement when there are many other youth organizations out there that have no such requirement (4H, Campfire, Boys Clubs, etc.)? Conversely, it is this very requirement that makes BSA attractive to parents, myself included. In a society that increasing denigrates faith, here is a youth organization that encourages it.

As a pack, we're attending a parent/son weekend campout; escorting the flag in the 4th of July parade; and going to a MLB game (go Brewers!).

Ok, all you Scoutmasters out there, I've got a question for you about how to provide program feedback. But first, a little background. For the past ten years, the pack I'm Cubmaster at fed into a troop (let's call them T1) that had the W2s crossover at the end of the school year. Sounded logical, as that schedule gave the W2s more time to earn as many activity badges as they wanted (we usually had a couple earn all 20). The pack awarded all the AOLs at the May pack meeting.

Last fall, my wife and I decided to move, in order to be closer to family and church. I found a troop in our soon-to-be new neighborhood for my son to join. This troop (let's call them T2) has W2s crossover in February. The Scoutmaster explained to my son in mid-February that he was welcome to participate, but wouldn't receive advancement credit until he actually joined. Given his summer birthday, that meant either earn the AOL or wait till June.

Now, I have to admit, as fantastic a Cubmaster and Webelos leader I am , I had noticed a waning of enthusaism in the W2s since Christmas, my own son included. But after that discussion with T2's Scoutmaster, I couldn't believe my son's response. In four weeks, he completed all the remaining requirements for his AOL (two activity badges, the oath, law, etc.). He received his AOL at the March pack meeting and you should have seen the looks on the faces :0 of the other seven W2s!. You could almost hear the gears grinding in their heads. At this month's pack meeting on Friday, I'll be awarding three more AOLs, maybe more.

I have been converted to early crossover and want to see T1 adopt this practive because I think it would benefit them, the boys, and the pack. However, I get the impression (accurate or not), that the leadership thinks fifth graders are too young, that they'll annoy the older scouts.

Scoutmasters, how would you want a Cubmaster (who you know 1. never was a scout and 2. has only slept in a tent three times in his life) to come forward with program feedback (aka constructive criticism) on how you run your troop's program? I don't want to sour the pack/troop relationship, especially since I won't be around after June.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

OK, now that I know BSA can revoke an award, I say that it should publicly revoke this person's Eagle award. Not to punish him, NJ, but to send a serious message, like slontwovvy said. The message is: BSA will publicly disassociate itself from members, past or present, who are convicted of despicable crimes. Bob White says a revocation is usually kept confidential. Isn't this one time that qualifies as unusual?(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Can, does, BSA revoke the Eagle award of a convicted felon? I'm thinking specifically of the person (I can't call him a man) who murdered Matthew Shepard. I don't see how BSA would allow him to retain the award.

This belongs in Issues & Politics.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

That's it! I'll bring a bag of oats to my next pack meeting !

The troop my son joined has a great program. It uses the new scout patrol program, has a camp outing almost every month, goes to summer camp, doesn't make a big deal if a boy is busy with sports/drama/whatever for a season, and has an excellent retention rate with the boys after the first year.

After reading your posts, I suspect that many parents/boys don't understand how the troop program is supposed to work. So, I'm thinking it's time to reach out to the other new scout parents and see if we, as parents, can't improve our class's retention rate. Perhaps a couple of parent sessions during troop meetings to get to know each other and raise the overall commitment level. What do you think?

Came back from my son's troop meeting last night disappointed to learn that troop leadership expects to lose half of the new boys by this same time next year. It's a big troop that had 20 boys crossover in March from four different packs, bring total membership closing on 100. Is it typical to lose so many so soon? To expect to? I thought we that we wanted to keep them all until they were 18.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Which approach will most easily integrate new boys into the troop? I'd suggest it's by retaining the existing patrols and adding boys to them equally as they appear. Couldn't the two short-handed patrols work together until next fall? I'm still pretty new to how a troop works (I think my name's a dead give-away), but my son's troop seems to think nothing of combining patrols on campouts if not enough boys can make it.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

NJCubScouter,

You say that the issue of undue influence doesn't matter. I agree, because there isn't any. But it was tjhammer (an articulate and ardent advocate of changing the policy) who brought it up, implying in another thread that the BSA policy was implemented because of undue influence by the LDS and RC church bodies.

I asked for membership information to assess that charge and I maintain the information supplied doesn't support the charge. In fact, I'll throw out the hypothesis that the 2001 membership information (if and when we are allowed to view it in similar detail) will show increases in units and membership to chartering organizations that support the policy and decreases in those that oppose it.

NJCubScouter,

Even if I use youth membership instead of unit numbers, the charge of undue influence by the LDS and RC church bodies just doesn't hold up.

In 1996, the church bodies in tjhmammers membership information sponsered units which contained 54% of youth membership. Almost all of these church bodies still teach that sexual relations belong in the context of a heterosexual marriage.

Therefore, it is perfectly logical for these church bodies to support a policy which says that a person who advocates sexual relations outside of heterosexual marriage (by their public actions and/or words) cannot be consider suitable to serve as a Scout leader, who is supposed to be a role model to youth.

Now, if BSA established a policy regarding Scout leaders that was based on the position of just the LDS or RC church bodies (eg no caffiene or celibacy), then there might be something to consider. But when a policy is reflective of the public position of the majority, I just don't see support for the complaint that a minority had an undue influence in establishing it.

Once again, I started this thread to discuss the charge of undue influence, not the value of the policy. You raised some valid questions and concerns, but I'll respond to them another time in a new thread.

Thanks again to both tjhammer and Bob White for the membership information. I was actually quite surprised to see how few units were sponsered by the public schools. Being only a recent Scouter, I wonder if that's the way it always was or a more recent trend of the past twenty years. But I digress. So, to return this thread back to it's orignal topic...

If Scout leaders are expected to serve as role models to the youth of their units; and

If being role models includes one's public actions and statements, even when not in uniform; and

If the majority of units (about 60%) are chartered to religious organizations which still officially teach that sexual relations belong in the context of a heterosexual marriage; and

If avowed homosexual means someone whose public actions and statements indicate their preference for sexual relations outside the context of a heterosexual marriage;

Then, the LDS and RC church bodies did not exercise undue influence in the establishment of the BSA policy regarding the suitability of an avowed homosexual to serve as a Scout leader. Rather, the policy reflects the teachings of the majority of BSA chartering organizations.

Thanks to both Bob White and tjhammer for their replies. Any chance either of you (or anybody else) knows where the most current version of this information exists on a public website?

In another thread on this forum, someone seems to express the opinion that the LDS and RC church bodies hold undue influence on the Boy Scouts of America. In order to evaluate this opinion, I'm wondering if anyone out there can direct me to some membership statistics. Specifically, I'm looking for a breakdown of the type and number of units sponsered by different religious and non-religious charter organizations. I tried the official BSA website to no avail. Thanks in advance.

Inquiry.net is a fantastic website! Thanks for letting us know about it. Did you check out the patrol yells? My son needs to come up with one for Tuesday night's troop meeting for his new patrol and these are much more fun than anything I was able to suggest.

I've found the internet to be the best source for almost anything scouting, especially for a Cubmaster with no scouting experience until two years ago. Any other suggestions for websites that would benefit parents of new boy scouts? I'm actually excited about the new scout patrol my son is in and would especially appreciate any more info on that concept. Thanks again.