CubsRgr8

Merlyn,

The statement that the S4A press release attributes to Mr. Schmidt slanders the honesty of atheists. I have found atheists to be no more or less honest than theists or agnostics. If I ever hear such a comment from an adult leader or a scout, I will discuss with them how slander does not reflect the values that scouting teaches.

PS The trouble with your substitution story is that while being a Jew is physical reality which a person has no control over, being a theist, an agnostic, or an atheist is a decision that a person can change at will.

(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

DeLukas,

Your church has the right to teach any religious beliefs it chooses. It also has the right to teach those beliefs in its scout units because it owns them. You have the right to participate or not participate in your church's activities, including scouting. Please don't excoriate scouting because you disagree with a teaching of your church.

What really puts the burr under my saddle about Mr. Lambert is the FACT that he filled out and signed an adult application when he turned 18, an application which clearly spells out what is required of him if he wants to serve as a leader. His mother didn't fill it out and sign it for him, he did, and of his own volition. It just grinds my gears!

The Bear Handbook says to tie the knot and explain its uses. I take it at its literal meaning and don't require the Bears to "learn" how to tie the knot. Do you agree or disagree with my take on this?

PS Don't forget to whip the end of the rope to prevent them from unravelling.

PPS The knot illustrations in the Boy Scout Handbook are far superior to those in the Bear Handbook.

I went to: http://www.ssa.gov and here is what the Social Security Administration says about organizations asking for your SSN.

"If a business or other enterprise asks you for your SSN, you can refuse to give it. However, that may mean doing without the purchase or service for which your number was requested. For example, utility companies and other services ask for a Social Security number, but do not need it; they can do a credit check or identify the person in their records by alternative means. Giving your number is voluntary, even when you are asked for the number directly. If requested, you should ask why your number is needed, how your number will be used, what law requires you to give your number and what the consequences are if you refuse. The answers to these questions can help you decide if you want to give your Social Security number. The decision is yours."

I provided mine since I'm registered as an adult leader. I like to think someone did a criminal background check on me. On the other hand, I discourage parents from providing their son's SSN or their own (it's on their son's application). IMHO, BSA has no need for this information from anyone who isn't registering as an adult leader.

Here's my vote for weekly den meetings. I've set it up that there's a Bear den meeting (in the art room at 3:30) every Monday that school is in session. No problem remembering what week the den is meeting. No not seeing a boy for a month if he misses one meeting. I know that not every leader can meet right after school, but I recommend it for those that can.

Go with sctmom's advice and contact your unit commissioner, district commissioner or district executive and explain your concerns to them. They are all very interested in seeing your pack succeed and that isn't possible unless leadership is working together as a team. In the meantime, don't make yourself crazy with worry. Do your best to provide your den with the best tiger cub year possible.

Since tiger activities require the scouts' adult partners to participate, this gives you ample opportunity to evaluate the parents' potential as leaders at the den or pack level. The best way to get effective volunteer leadership is to personally recruit the best-qualified person. One on one over coffee explaining what the job is and why they are the best person. Good luck!

The problems you describe seem to revolve around responsibilities that the CM should not have. She should not handle money, advancements, or plan parties. Those jobs belong to members of the pack committee (treasurer, advancement coordinator, activities coordinator). They also do not belong to den leaders! The committee chair is responsible for making sure these supporting functions are being handled in a timely manner by committee members (who are NOT den leaders). So, does your pack have a committee?

I'm the advancement chair for a pack of about 70 scouts. Just prior to the September pack meeting, I received 4 emails, 1 phone call, and 3 hand-scribbled notes detailing each den's advancement. After that experience, I checked out ScoutTrack.com and decided it was worth it (especially for the consolidated reports it generates). So far, I've implemented it for the Tiger, Wolf and Bear dens as a leader-based system. Next, I'll expand access to include those parents. For Webelos, it will definitely be a leader-based system only. I see only positives with this product, and for $30/year, I know it will spare me a lot of grief (not to mention gray hairs!).

Are you talking about being asked to prepare your den to participate in the pack meetings (skit, song, etc.) or are you being asked to run the pinewood derby, fundraiser, etc?

Go for it! Being a Webelos Den Leader is really great! It is different than Tiger/Wolf/Bear because it's much more outdoor oriented. Hiking, joint den/troop activities, cabin camping, tent camping, camporees, Webelos summer camp - stay outdoors and enjoy the fresh air.

If you're weak in outdoor skills (like me) check with your council and the neighboring ones (they almost all have wesites) and find out when they're offering Webelos Outdoor Leader Training. An added bonus (and back on-thread) only the WDL can sign-off, no parents!

Questions for tj:

1) Do you really think your hypothetical "gay" scout would not be allowed to join his UMC troop? On what basis? The COR not signing his application? The council doing a background investigation? National kicking back his application because he checked the wrong box?

2) Can you please provide all of us with the scientific citation to support the implicit claim you make that boys "know" that they are "gay" before they are done going through puberty? After all, only boys age 11-17 can join a troop.

3) Isn't the main argument (oops, I mean discussion) in this about the BSA policy regarding registered adult leadership? not a non-existant policy about the sexuality of youth members?

All too often the "change BSA" crowd redirects the discussion by appealing to emotion (oh, that poor, deprived boy!) instead of keeping the disussion on target and focused on the facts. Yes, scouting should be for every kid, but the reality here (and throughout the world) is that he has to be a member of a community of adults willing to offer the program. There are tens of millions of boys who can't join because there are no willing adults, not because BSA has restrictive youth membership requirements.

In another discussion on this forum, Bob White says the YP training course was updated in 1999. As an ACM, I need to be recertified in YP, so I called up my council office and asked "are you using the 1999 version?" Nobody knew, but they said "it features a talk show format". Has anyone taken the 1999 version recently and does this sound like it? Thanks in advance.

You might consider renting the track instead of buying it. There are several troops in my area that provide a complete rental deal: track, computer, race management software (including each lane timed to the 1/100th of a second), personnel, set-up and tear-down. While it costs a little money, it's less than buying, it reinforces impartiality, and there's no storage problem.

The first meeting is a Pack Meeting and Pack Meetings are for the boys. Nothing will bore the boys faster than a meeting without goofiness, laughter, noise, etc. In other words, from the first meeting on, make it fun by using skits, run-ons, knock-knock jokes, and/or etc! And if you like to sing - sing! Just make sure the lyrics are goofy, the parents know the tune (Jingle Bells, et al), and the words are printed on posterboards, held up in front by some of the boys.

Bob is 1000% correct about eye-to-eye recruiting! Last year, the Webelos 1 den was floundering and no parents were stepping forward. I evaluated each parent (custodial and non-custodial) of every Webelos 1 boy. Then I decided who I would want to be the den leader if my son was in that den. I sat down for coffee with him and eye-to-eye discussed the need, the actual time commitment, AND the support available. It worked.

Congratulations! You've done a great thing for your son and all the other boys in his pack. I, too, became a Cubmaster unexpectedly and found it to be an extremely rewarding experience. The most important thing I can recommend is more TRAINING - New Leader Essentials and Leader Specific ASAP. You'll be amazed at the increase in your comfort level. And encourage the other leaders to attend with you - it'll build team spirit.

"What things have you ... found to be the more popular among the boys?"

Noise. Boys like to make noise and there aren't many places that it's allowed. I taught them silly songs and cheers using posterboard with the words. I also used audience participation stories with great success.

"Are the elaborate ceremonies generally enjoyed?"

I don't know about elaborate. I had a simple ceremony for rank advancement at each pack meeting, which they enjoyed, especially those that involved fire (candles), especially if they got to start the fire.

"What events, or activities have you found that seem to excite the most interest?"

Number 1 all-time favorite is pinewood derby. But they also enjoyed sledding, bowling, hiking, basically any physical activity. Outdoor bonfires are also very popular.

You've got the right attitude and your pack is lucky to have you! Check-in and let us know how you're doing and good luck!

(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

The BSA site lists other circumstances that allow a boy to join Lone Scouts. Also, somehow one of my links doesn't work, but you can get to it through the other one.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Sctmom, maybe your son would be better off in the Lone Scout program. There was an article about it in the October 2001 issue of Scouting Magazine. I don'd know a lot about the program, but (using Scouter's internal search engine) when I checked out this unofficial site: http://www.activated-storytellers.com/lone_scout_guidebook. it looked promising. Also, check out: http://www.geocities.com/zephyrgoza/ which is a website run by a Lone Scout himself. What do you think?

On another thread I asked a question that got lost in the discussion, so I've reformatted it and hereby post it separately.

What does it mean that national issues an annual charter to each council? Does it mean national evaluated the council performance and found it to be satisfactory? Does it mean the books (money and membership) were audited? Does it mean the camping/training/recruiting/roundtable programs were reviewed and "personal improvement plans" were established for the coming year? Or doesn't it?

Having the adults step in doesn't sound like a good idea, IMHO. The example that would be set is "if the scouts can't/won't do it, the adults will take care of it" which definitely isn't the idea.

How about suggesting to the PLC that they jointly take on responsibility for the SPL role for the next six months? They jointly appoint the other PORs, and each then serve as SPL for two months of the next six. While acting as SPL, their APL runs the patrol those two months. You'll end up with three scouts who got to "test drive" being SPL and maybe three candidates for the spring election.

Bob White,

Thanks for the clarification. To answer your question, I am surprised the revised policy covers local tour permits because there's an emphasis in my council to file a local tour permit whenever a cub scout den takes a field trip away from its regular meeting place. Walking to the police station? Get a local tour permit, in addition to signed permission slips. Therefore, if my council continues with this, every den leader who wants to take a field trip will need to take the 90 minute course. Better to find out now than in January. Thanks again for the information.

AMS1, settle down! A lot of us go out of town on the weekend, cut the grass, play with our kids, or attend scouting events, etc. Just because your post didn't get twelve pages of responses in two days does NOT mean we don't care. Give the forum a little time. Maybe nobody in Chicago reads this forum! BTW, you made some serious allegations, so, where did you get your information? Point us to a website, newspaper article, SOMETHING besides your post, so that we can evaluate the situation objectively.

Bob White, while I agree with 90% of your response, I have to ask the following questions.

1) Why isn't it the concern of scouters nation-wide when a particular council is having problems? It does reflect on all of us if a council sells off a historic camp, or goes under, or has bad leadership, or gets caught inflating membership numbers, or disbands a pack and removes their flags in the middle of the night, or anything else that results in negative publicity for the movement. Why? Because the general public, and, I dare say MOST scouters, don't understand this charter thing. They perceive BSA as a regular corporate entity, where what happens in one unit/district/council is representative of how the BSA program is run throughout the country.

2) If things are so bad in Chicago (and I don't know one way or the other), or any other council for that matter, when does/should national get involved? After all, they grant an annual charter to each council, right? Which to me implies that things are fine, that the council is operating the BSA program correctly, honestly, safely, etc. If Chicago's membership decline is so precipitous, why does national keep renewing their charter?

Hope to hear back from BOTH of you soon.

I found this posted on the Chicago Council website:

"Effective January 2003, both the local tour permit and the national tour permit application will include a requirement that at least one adult present during the event or activity must have completed the BSA Youth Protection Training."

The LOCAL tour permit? Is this for real? Or do they mean the overview of YP that's included in Basic Leader Essentials?

(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Yes, a Bear can earn beltloops for activities in which they participate after they became a Bear (in your son's case, the day he registered). I strongly encourage my Bears to earn beltloops. It can be a long time before a Wolf or Bear earns his rank, and earning beltloops gives him a chance for recognition during pack meetings until then. You can find the beltloop requirements online at http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/home.html. Another great resource for Bears is found at http://www.pack1421.org/ranks/bears/.