CubsRgr8

kittle,

Don't give up trying to get training, just because your cubmaster says it isn't available right now. Hogwash! Maybe not in your district, or your council, but there 14 active councils in Illinois and I'll bet one close by is offering the training you want.

Somewhere on the internet, I found an Excel spreadsheet listing all the active BSA councils, as of November 1999 (name, address, phone, website). I'll send you a private message with all the Illnois info and I'll send the spreadsheet to anyone who asks for it.

The B&G is NOT a pack meeting? Say, that sounds great - a vast improvement over trying to squeeze four hours of stuff in two. Do you run into any crabby parent feedback about two nights in one month?

denver4, I realize my post of 12-16 was off-thread, but then, most posts are off-thread by the time page 3 shows up, wouldn't you agree? Besides, I already said DL should keep his Eagle back on page 1.

My post was a response to scoutldr's comment that labled us all as hypocrites when it comes to the Scout Oath and Law. I refused to let that go unchallenged. Regardless of your opinion of the validity of excluding atheists from BSA, DL is the hypocrite in his little melodrama, not I nor anyone else.

This dad needs something to do! Find a job that he can dig into for the pack (not the den) and let him at it! Every pack needs a couple of Asst. Cubmasters - and one is responsble for YP and GSS. Or how about running a new derby (Raingutter Regatta, Space Derby) that your pack hasn't done in the past? Organizing summer pack activities. Maybe he's the guy to get BALOO trained so he can organize a Pack campout. Perhaps he's the next Committee Chairman and doesn't even know it, yet! I can name a dozen unwilling, uninvolved parents in my pack I'd trade for just one dad like you describe. Remember, the glass is half full, not half empty. YIS

Darell Lambert was no more a hypocrite than the rest of us

Perhaps a review of the Random House College Dictionary definition of the word hypocrite would be helpful here.

Hypocrite - a person who pretends to have desirable or publicly approved attitudes, beliefs, principles, etc., he does not actually possess.

My failure to consistently live up to the ideals of behavior articulated in the Scout Oath and Law does NOT make me a hypocrite - it makes me human! And I don't pretend anything - I fully believe in and support these ideals, hard as they may be for me to achieve. I do my best to impart these values to every scout I work with in my pack and troop.

On the other hand, Mr. Lambert's lies about his faith in God, which "he does not actually possess", made him a hypocrite and completely unsuitable to serve as a BSA leader.

A charter organization may restrict membership in its scouting unit as it sees fit, as long as such restrictions don't violate BSA rules. A good example of this is a well-regarded troop in Milwaukee where membership is restricted to the boys who attend the parochial middle school which sponsers the unit. However, most charter organizations don't limit membership in any way, viewing sponsership of a scouting unit as a form of community service.

Is Ethics In Action still a part of the BSA program? It's missing from the newest edition of the Cub Leader Handbook and I'm wondering why.

The pack will spend some time in a service project writing holiday greetings to the troops stationed in Afganistan. To balance that rather sedate activity, we'll be having a "snowball" relay, using plastic teaspoons and cottonballs.

Ok, so next year I'll have a den of 10 Webelos 1 and I'm wondering about resident camp. What should I look for in facilities? program? length? food? etc? Any and all commments are welcome, including camp specific comments/reviews. Thanks.

Thank you, ASM7, for tracking down that quote from BP. It certainly sets the record straight regarding his intentions when Duty to God was included in the Scout Oath. Duty to God is still present in every version of the Scout Oath I've run across and there is a significant amount of space devoted to the topic on the WOS website.

Also, it seems to me, ASM1, that you are describing a deist, or even an agnostic, but not an atheist. I venture to say that an atheist would deny the existence of any entity described as One Earth, One Universe, One Soul aka the Great Spirit.

SagerScout, I must disagree. To a greater extent than you may realize, the personal circumstances of your life regarding sexuality, marriage, children, faith, and denominational affiliation are known to the scouts you serve. As a significant adult in their lives, the personal circumstances of your life do provide them with lessons in sex and religion. You bring to them all of who you are, good and bad, and you influence them and who they will become, much more than you will ever know.

The best way I found to communicate to parents was during pack meetings. Have the boys hand out adult leader registration forms and talent surveys at the start of the meeting. Then, after the opening, the ACM takes the boys and den leaders off to play a game for 20 minutes and the CM holds a parents meeting.

Show them the Fast Start tape (I think it's about 12 minutes long). When it's done, emphasize that it's their pack, not yours, and by the way, they're all now (partially) trained leaders . Praise them for enrolling their families in cub scouting and then give them a few minutes for schmoozing with the neighbors. Good luck!

If at all possible, have a District/Council trainer present pack committee training to your entire committee during a meeting. They'll all hear the same thing at the same time AND they won't have to give up additional time.

As pack leaders, it's our responsibility to award a W2 his rank/award as soon as he earns it (official BSA policy). There's nothing wrong with handing out AOLs one at a time if there's a W2 who's earned it. This can motivate the other W2s to get it in gear.

Crossover is reserved (by definition) for those W2s who are joining a troop. That means they've either received their AOL, turned 11, or completed 5th grade. Once again, there's nothing wrong with holding this ceremony more than once a year.

Finally, graduation should be reserved for the last pack meeting of the school year. Every W2 should be recognized for their participation in the pack and den during the previous year. This should include those W2s who already joined a troop. Let the younger cubs see their older friends in the tan shirts with red tabs, troop numerals and neckerchiefs.

An important goal of the cub scout program is to prepare boys to join a troop. Look at your webelos programming in this light and let it inform your decisions about ceremonies. BTW, you might also see an increase in the number of den chiefs available for your pack!

Here's what's working for me (so far!).

1) Training - as much and as often as possible.

2) Code of Conduct - the scouts brainstormed and we developed six rules of conduct. We made a poster that's up at every den meeting. (#1 rule - have fun).

3) Den Meetings - same time, place, day, every week. Yes, that's four den meetings a month. I don't feel compelled to try and get so much done at each meeting.

4) Commitment - tell the parents/scouts that scouting is a lot of fun but they have to participate out of den meeting times. It's not the den leader's role to do everything during den meetings.

5) Field trips - one a month AND attendance is a priviledge EARNED individually by behavior during den meetings.

Finally, 14 boys is way too many in a den, regardless of age. It's time to tell the Cubmaster to split the den in half. This is your chance to be a den leader and have fun, too!

littlebillie,

Question at large - COULD AN ATHEIST SIGN THIS WITHOUT DUPLCITY, HYPOCRISY OR FRAUD? In the above verbiage, subscription to this declaration of principle does not seem to confirm that the signee him/herself in fact holds a belief in God.

No. Why? When someone signs the adult leader application, they apply to become a member of BSA. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. I don't see how someone can recognize an obligation to God without accepting the existance of God. How can the two be separated? Explain it to me.

Are you suggesting that the exercise of Free Speech to acknowledge separation of Church and State for those who independently OMIT "under God" from the pledge is something that should get them kicked out of Scouts?!

No, that's not what I'm suggesting. Reread my post and you'll see that I'm suggesting BSA leaders who can't, in good conscience, say they accept the existance of God, are being dishonest with either themselves (by going along) or BSA (by not disclosing their atheism).

littlebillie,

We had a couple of boys from a two-dad family in our original Pack before the school kicked us out. Should those boys have not been allowed to join?

Of course these boys should be allowed to join. But that's not the topic being discussed on this thread.

If a person cannot themselves believe, but encourages the comfort and direction and belonging that faith can bring for others, wha(t) problem do you have with that?

I don't have a problem with that, per se, unless they want to sign up as a religious ed teacher, a rabbi/minister/priest, or an adult leader in a values based movement that accepts, embraces and promotes Duty to God as one of its core values.

You say that, but you seem to really think that there are no atheists who can see the value of religion for others, and who would encourage others to keep their faith if the(y) can.

Anyone (including atheists) with any common sense recognizes the good religion does for society through its service work. The issue isn't about the value of religion to society, it's about accepting the existence of God.

BSA adult leaders, who "gloss over" Duty to God or "omit" words/phrases from the Scout Oath or Pledge of Allegience, are being dishonest with themselves and BSA. BSA adult leaders who announce "I am an atheist" are no different than those who announce "I am an anarchist." They are no longer suitable adult leaders, for they articulate a value which is diametrically opposed to those found in the Scout Oath and Law.

Black and white? Yes, in this instance, it is.

littlebillie and tjhammer,

I am NOT talking about a priest experiencing a crisis of faith. I am NOT talking about a widower who has an epiphany regarding his sexuality. I am NOT talking about the merits of evolution vs. intelligent design. I am NOT talking about BSA's policy on homosexuality.

I am talking about adults who are expected to influence youth, to instill in them very specific values. I am talking about adults who volunteer in a movement that, right up front on the application they sign, requires them to accept, embrace and promote Duty to God as one of those values.

I'm no paragon of virtue. I frequently fail to live up to the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Law, including Duty to God. But I never deny the worth of any one of those values, which I try my best to instill in the youth of the pack and troop I serve. These are the very same values you both agreed to promote when you signed up as adult leaders.

(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

littlebillie,

So, you think it's ok for adult leaders to pick and choose which values they will publicly deny, just as long as they don't do it in front of the youth? That can't be your intention, yet it the inevitable conclusion I reach. I stand by my statement as written and do not accept your suggested change.

For a leader to deny any one of these values makes them unacceptable to continue serving as a leader.

Attend a PowWow. Meet with Webelos leaders in other neighboring packs. Go to your District roundtables. Surf the internet. The resources are there, the only limitation is time.

Great news! It's been said before, but it's worth repeating, your son is lucky to have you! I hope this works out for your son. Good Luck!

acco40,

The Scout Oath and Law describe very specific values to which Scouts and their leaders are expected to aspire. To use your example, I agree that there are leaders (and even Scouts!) who are overweight, drink too much, smoke, etc. I don't expect any human being to be able to live up to each and every value 100% of the time and accept them as the people they are, short-comings and all.

However, there is a world of difference between failing to live up to any one of these values and the total denial of the worth of one of them. To announce "I am an atheist" denys the worth of the ideals articulated in Duty to God and Reverent. The equivalent for, say, Duty to Country, would be to proclaim "I am an anarchist."

When you or I join an organization, we voluntarily accept the values specifically promoted by that organization. In BSA, leaders agree to go beyond accepting those values and agree (by signing the application)to promoting them. That, after all, is the reason BSA exists. To quote (yet once again!) from the adult leader application:

"It is the mission of the Boy Scouts of America to serve others by helping instill values in young people and, in other ways, to prepare them to make ethical choices over their lifetime in achieving their full potential. The values we strive to instill are based on those found in the Scout Oath and Law."

For a leader to deny any one of these values makes them unacceptable to continue serving as a leader.

(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

No. While a Boy Scout, Mr. Lambert fulfilled all the requirements for the award. He received unanimous approval of the members of his Eagle BOR. To revoke his Eagle, for his statements and/or actions as an adult, would be a mistake. BTW, I'm 110% with Bob White regarding the Eagle BOR members, but that's another thread.

I suggest that the defenders of Mr. Lambert as missing the point. When Mr. Lambert turned 18, he chose to volunteer as an adult leader in a BSA troop. He completed and signed a BSA adult leader application. The application contains the Declaration of Religious Principle, which says:

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America's policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership."

The adult application goes on to state:

"The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be of the correct age, and subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle, Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law."

An atheist cannot, by definition, subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle,nor the concepts articulated in the Scout Oath (Duty To God) and Scout Law (Reverent), without lying to either himself or BSA. Mr. Lambert chose to lie to BSA. Anyone who is willing to lie their way into a youth leadership position is NOT a role model for those youth and should be removed. Good riddance!

I am uncomfortable to hear of a den leader speaking for these scouts and their families. Her opinion is just that, her opinion. Frankly, she is speaking out of turn. These scouts and their families need to be given the opportunity to make that decision for themselve.

I agree that the boys are eligible for their AOL awards in December, provided they have completed the requirements. However, the Cubmaster or Advancement Chair (me!) signs the report, which certifies that the scouts are entitled to the awards. I strongly suggest that pack leadership review the handbooks to make sure of this. Be sure to present this not as a criticism of the den leader, but as a requirement for all tranferring Webelos 2s.

That being said, I also encourage your pack leadership to immediately come up with a plan to keep these boys registered. Announce at this month's pack meeting an early bird registration special - every family that turns in their son's fees that night get some incentive - a can of popcorn, half off the fees, a free subscription to Boy's Life - whatever your pack can afford.

Then the pack leadership should encourage them to cross-over with the rest of the Webelos 2 later in the year. They should go on as many troop activities as possible before they are awarded their AOL. Camporees, cabin camping, sledding, visiting meetings at different troops. Contact the neighboring troops' leaders now and get them involved! Don't wait until after New Year's!

If you want to further discuss strategies for maximizing W2 retention and cross-over, please contact me via the PM function (located in the upper right hand corner of my post). YIS