croushorn

I like the trick my old SM would pull: he'd bring along two chairs to every campout - one clearly marked for himself and one clearly marked as "SPL". Then he'd always have a third handy for when a visiting parent would be there. He would make a big deal over it, mark the chair with the adult's name on tape on it. Then he would make the adult sit there while he got to know the parent better and squeezing in discussions about the philosophies and methods of the boy lead troop. Kept the adult away from his little Johnny and helped teach another parent how Scouting worked. By the end of the weekend, he usually had a new ASM.

Don't miss the opportunity to do some recruiting.

I gave one of these buck knives for one of my 'special' Eagles last summer. It is a beautiful knife and would highly recommend it.

http://www.yaworski.com/eagleknife/

Then you know more about how your council selects leaders than any of us do. Unfortunately politics can be a part of it, or at least it may appear that way to others. If you don't like how it was done, I suggest that you get involved and help be a part of it: find out what council committees are involved and join them. It's important to have qualified and dedicated leaders in the right roles for this trip. It's not a light committment, and can be a LOT of work.

Maybe 2010 is different, but in 2005 they were scrambling for adult staff members. Not sure what it takes or how the process works. PM me and I will put you in touch with someone that does.

Most councils have been at this for over a year now I would ask if you are a late comer to the selection process? They may already have selected folks for the other positions. Each council determines the qualifications for each position; we've had ASMs without proper experience end up as SMs and it has been a problem.

I dont know anything about staff selection status, but would send an inquiry up the ladder to find out who you need to talk to about staff. Don't waste anymore time on the computer and get someone on the phone. They always need folks for staff!

duh, it's a spoof name....

We hold montly BORs, and with 25+ boys, we haven't recently tried holding BORs for nonadvancing reasons. Would be nice, but we just don't have the time.

What is it that a non-advancement BOR would do that would be better or more helpful than occasional SM conferences?

Just different, different folks involved. The SM may be very busy, there may be things the AC or others are picking up on, could be a lot of things. Depending upon the size of your troop and the number of your conferences, non-adv SM conferences can be a challenge to get in; this could be a way to lighten the load on the SM. Again, not that we do it, but wouldn't be a bad idea if we did!

Thank you GWD for your examples, youve provide many good details. They are much more helpful than the chest thumping that tends to go on here. I have made fire!

And having studied Latin,

What!? You mean its not even Lenai Lenape? Oh, Ive been ripped off.

AHHHH! Thank you Beavah! Thank you for spending your time writing a thoughtful post that actually contributes to the discussion rather than condescending preaching through a theoretical lecture about how poor of a leader I am because I slept through that part of the class... sheeze...

Those are some great ideas I will take to our PLC this week. Thank you again.

See kiddies, this is what happens when you bother reading the question. Any others?

and if you have done your job of having a program that teaches Scouts the skills leading to First Class its a very natural progression in the program.

Once again, thank you kindly for the lecture about what you havent done yourself, or what you did as a kid (I did a lot of cool things as a kid myself, but thats not what I asked either). And in all the sections you cite, they DO NOT address specifically what is expected of a SM and the troop leadership when a patrol wishes to go and how we deal with it. Or do they? no adults are required hmmph, thats real helpful. You got me, I don't have the training manuals handy. What do they say about how to deal with it, which is what I asked for from the beginning. Please..

Recently all Scoutmasters should have received a DVD from National. On it was a message from Tico Perez, our new National Commissioner.

Really? I better look into that...

Kudu once and for all, your schtick has gotten really old, this is 2008 and what was done prior to 1972 isnt at all relevant anymore. So quit whining and get off it, youre no Yoda. Go find a hobby.

BW: you who continually bangs us over the head to follow the BSA regs and finds fault with all who dont follow the regs to the T, tell me where in this great Scouting training program that I am to follow so closely does it tell me how to deal with the inquiry from a patrol that wants to do their own thing? It wasnt in my training, it isnt detailed in the SM handbook, so, oh wise know it all, how do I deal with it? Have YOU ever been a direct leader that did?

Stosh since according to you, your SPL-less method is the best way to run a troop, so tell me: do your patrols go and do this? If so, how? Not another subjective lesson that a SM worth his weight would be training them how to do it, or get out of the way and let someone who will, tell me how your perfect patrols do it? And if so, how does it go? How do you deal with the parents? How do you deal with the safety of YOUR boys?

Thank you BP! Agreed with Nikes idea, that will give us plenty of time to see how council will deal with it. From the protective side, I hate to talk it up to the guys though and have council shoot it down I will try and see what happens. But unlike many here who love to type about their great conquests, Im one of the few that actually do. Im not saying I dont trust my guys, I have concerns about trusting the rest of the world with MY guys. And still dont know of any camping in our area that will take a group of teens without an adult BUT I WILL ASK!! I am very proud of my guys and their accomplishments, would take any as my own; if you all get hung up on wedgies, then you obviously miss the point, just like they missed the point GW made about trading punches.

Good gosh, enough theory and preaching lets hear some real experiences.

Loud Snoring Bear is what it translates to BTW, my vigil name.

I did look again; that's exactly what I was 'hmmph'ing over... I understand what you are saying, just don't think I can agree that it is ok to disregard the tour permit requirements because it omits patrol events or because a patrol event doesnt fit any of the check boxes. The patrol is part of the troop, therefore it is subject to the same requirements that a troop would be.

Look - Im certainly not a helicopter parent, but wow do I see this as being irresponsible as an adult leader of the troop AND patrol. Not to mention the liability scares the crap out of me.

So you are saying a patrol outing is exempt from the requirements of the tour permit, because it doesn't specifically address a patrol outing.

Hmmph. Thats interesting. All the details I need to provide and safety requirements of G2SS the troop needs to follow don't apply because it's a patrol outing.

But the SM still needs to approve the trip. Verbally? In writing?

So if a few guys go off and do something on their own, thats fine, its on their own.

But if they come to me, as the SM, to approve it, doesnt it then become a troop function at that point and thereby require a tour permit?

We'd get there eventually - how about the liability question: Little Johnny looses an eye is he covered by BSA insurance because I approved it? What liability have I and/or the troop incurred because I approved the trip but neglected my leadership role to monitor the event or fill out the proper tour permit. They always hold out that if dont file the permit for a troop function we may not be covered by insurance; I dont get how this is any different.

You guys are braver than I am I guess and that's not just looking for obstacles, that's CYA and I'll gladly admit it. No thanks.

I would guess that most Webelos den leaders I've met don't see it that way.

Exactly! If they do, then you can count on the leader being an active part of the troop their son crosses into - find and latch onto those! This is an annual battle that I have come to really dread over the years. Being fall we all need to start playing the game again. We have a super-mom-and-dad-run troop in our area that is really hurting the remaining troops. Plus as was said, we're fighting an influencial DL's connection to a different Troop.

It's pretty tough to make a good conclusion about a troop with one, maybe even two visits. I would simply say find out if the troop is boy lead or not and how well does the adult leaders interact with the Scouts. Key on questions about their SPL & his PLC will tell you a lot. The tenor of adult interaction sets the tone for everything, from how much fun they have at meetings to how much your son will grow. IMHO a good litmus is how much laughing do you see between the boys and adults; or how many older Scouts are at a meeting? There may be reasonable answers to what you see, but I would guess if there arent any older guys there then there are very possibly underlying issues. It takes time to feel through this, and unfortunately, if you don't spend the time then you get what you get.

I was ok with all this until the part where they passed another boy. Apparently, not having his book wasnt the only criteria they failed him on. If it was, they shouldnt have entertained him at all in the BOR. It is not an unfair question to ask, and I stress ask so that it isnt perceived as being helicopterish. I hope your relationship with the AC will ensure that isnt what you are attempting.

Unfortunately, the bar does become higher for sons of Scouters. My son has definitely had a more difficult road than many of his peers, only because of the expectations. Ive never given him a SM conference, and as an ASM said once, he probably gets one driving home from each Scout meeting. I hope others arent unnecessarily holding your son to a higher standard because they know whatever is required will be met by him; that can be difficult for a kid to accept, feeling of futility.

Barry - that's what I'm asking - how can it be done today? I'd like to try it, but how do I go about getting tour permits, etc... that would be needed for any other troop event. I have to approve it, correct? What criteria do I use to approve it?

Thank you jet, you've come closest to anyone really telling me that it's been actually done under current conditions. Please let us know if that tour permit ever gets approved!

Now, I'm not usually a cynic, but this sounds pretty hokey to me. May have worked back in the day when we used to have access to open space, but with all the rules and regulations on YP, proper trained supervision, G2SS, you mean this can be allowed? Unless someone in the unit or a friend of the unit has some acreage, this aint gonna happen. Heres why:

1.) Who is going to get them there? Need a tour permit.

2.) What kind of ranger/owner/manager is going to let a group of minors come onto their property for any length of time without any adult supervision? Cripe, most campgrounds in my area want a damage deposit and thats WITH adult supervision.

3.) Who is going to answer to M&D when little Johnny shows up with a wedgie mark up his back and demanding answers from the SM that approved it? Or much worse

Now, Ive been around this Scouting game for a few years, and while it all sounds so glamorous and sentimental when quoting BP, but Id like to see how it is done TODAY: not when we were kids, not outside of the USA, not back when BP himself was camping. And done without violating one of the BSA commandments we as adults have sworn on our first born to follow. I want someone to tell me a tour permit was filled out and approved by their council for this. I really hope one of you proves me wrong - because I'd love to run this by my committee, but with what vagueness I've read here so far, no way. I'd get laughed out of the committee meeting.

How did you institute them into your program? What did you use to intice the Scouts to take part?

I run 5ks monthly and see the money they raise; have thought about setting one up for our troop/district/lodge for a fundraiser....

FOOD!! Party subs arent expensive!

I never have time to go home between work and RT; so I have two options: 1.) Hit a McDeath drive thru on the way and pay for it with heartburn and cursing of my Doctor, or 2.) end up disrupting the evening with my grumbellies all meeting long and gorging myself when I get home at 9:30.

Neither are good options!

Sorry DYB - but we gotta use some reason here. I can 'kind of' see her concern, but how can someone really think you would do something inappropriate in the middle of a parade?

We're on the same page, if they want to accuse me, let them. I have to trust more reasonable heads will prevail. Maybe Ill eat my words one of these days, but if so then theres something much bigger wrong here...

Hey DYB - ask your CC if she'd be happier if the kid's drawers fell to his ankles right there in the street? WOW, that's as stupid as holding up the kids on their way to the port-o-pot because they didn't have TWO adults escorting them.... jeeze... my line to those idiots: "go find something constructive to do... "

Come to my council Dean, we still do TAP-OUTS just like back in the day

Know-It-Alls can take out all the fun and as you experienced ruin what can be an opportunity to excite the fire in the eye of a young Scout. Sad. The only way to try and head off that kind of crap is to not rely on others to know what is acceptable or not, but that just reduces the chance as you would have no way of knowing all that as your focus is on CS right now. Education and training is the best answer so that you can combat their ignorance. But more importantly, it puts you into a position to balance the KIA (like that?) with some reason do YOU want this kid to pee himself while we have this ridiculous discussion? Think about it and we can talk more on our way back. A perfect YP problem is coming home from a campout and theres always that one kid left that M&D arent there to pick up. Youre there, and it better be with another inconvenienced adult or another boy, usually your own poor kid. Be careful in how you deal with that and how you decide to take your chances.

Narra sounds like my path parallels yours; But for me it was after Scouting and I was Uncle Sams problem. I am however, proud to say I never did drugs. And I didnt do it during adolescence. Nor did I turn around to ask for half-hearted forgiveness to receive a prestigious award only a select few ever earn while hiding what I was still doing on the side.

Not that it necessarily makes what you or I did any better, but I properly earned Eagle as Im sure you did. At least both of us have returned to our foundations after we sowed our wild oats. That is a burden I accept as a Scouter and father now, keeping boys active and involved as long as possible so that awards earned and principles learned early arent forgotten a year later. I hope he can say the same when he's our age.(This message has been edited by ursus snorous roarus)

If he took it prior to any of the current leaders' time, the Tigers program is quite different than it is now (t-shirts to unis for one!). If he was a Tiger all the way through Webs, it was at least 5 years ago... I would put it to the committee with a strong recommendation that he retake it. 5 years may be a good guideline to require re-training? A reasonable leader should understand that, but some folks aren't always reasonable! Get your committee backing before so if there's any grief they have your back.

Agreed - once a month isn't too much to ask. And if you have a decent sized troop, say over 15 boys, once every three months will make for one loooooong night for your committee. Don't forget, the idea is to work in new parents into these events so they can learn how to do them, too (always be training a replacement!). Increased frequency will tap more people instead of being so heavily reliant on just a handful.

A side point - don't use email to plead your case; get to a committee meeting and have a good face to face talk. Email for this kind of discussion will go bad, guaranteed.

If they won't accept a monthly BOR, at least offer a compromise from 4 times a year to 6 times a year and see what happens. I bet it will relax some angst of committee members performing them and also the boys because they will know if they miss this one the next is only two months away, vs 3.