Crossramwedge

Speaking from a CC's point of view I would say you are fighting a lost cause. If the CC backs him as you say then the only recourse you would have is to go to the COR and he probably already knows what is going on. Your Unit Commissioner can talk to the COR and the CO. But at the end of the day if the CC, COR and the CO are in agreement then its time for you to move on because all the bases have been covered and nothing is going to change.

Speaking from a CC's point of view I would say you are fighting a lost cause. If the CC backs him as you say then the only recourse you would have is to go to the COR and he probably already knows what is going on. Your Unit Commissioner can talk to the COR and the CO. But at the end of the day if the CC, COR and the CO are in agreement then its time for you to move on because all the bases have been covered and nothing is going to change.

Camporee went well. Had last minute cancellations and only had a couple of hundred Scouts there. Yet everybody who attended said it was an excellant Camporee. The OA has stepped forward and said that they wanted to be in charge next year. This will be the first time in 5 years that somebody else will be in charge besides the core 3 troops that have been doing it the past 4 years. We told them that we would help them in a limited supporting role. There plan is to get indivindual troops to volunteer to be in charge of one competition/task thereby spreading the work around and not putting the burden on 2 or 3 troops. They ought to be able to do this since the OA is made up of all of the various troops. Relief at last.

Went to one of my 4th grade Webelos funerals today. He had just turned 10. His twin sister was hurt, but is recovering. She will be all right physically. Tragic auto accident. He died on the scene. He was a boy full of life. Gave 100% at whatever he did. Always had a smile in his face, beaming from ear to ear. Over 1500 people where there. He will be missed by all. Please pray for the Mom and Dad. I can not imagine what they or other parents must go through when this happens.

We have picky eaters. We allow the boys to bring jerky and trail mix on campouts. At night it must be properly stored so they do not "Welcome" visitors of the four leg kind at night. No Candy, soda or personal chips. If they do not like what is on the menu, they eat only what they like or go hungry. They deal with it. They still do all the chores, cook, clean up etc. We as leaders do not need to be "Food Police" and force these kids to eat on a campout. On the other hand, if they don't eat what the patrol cooks, then so be it. As far as the kid then eating desert, it may be the only nutrition he gets, so if he does the "Chores" and pays the grub money then he gets at least one "Smores". After all he paid for it. Its our job to try and educate them as to what is good for them. What his parents let him do at home as far as eating habits, right or wrong is their business, not ours unless it amounts to some sort of abuse. If the parent themselves approach the leaders and inform them that they are to withhold "Desert" if the kid does not eat what is on the menu, then thats a different story. If the kid has a eating disorder then the leaders need to be informed of it. Let the parent do their job and let us do ours.

We have tried that and have gotten commitments just to have them back out.

We are about to hold our Fall District Camporee. It seems the same 4 or 5 troops have been the backbone of this Camporee since the beginning of it 4 years ago. There are 40 some odd troops in the District. About half of them show up for the Camporee as well as a few from out of our District. Its not a large Camporee and usually tops out at around 300 to 400 Scouts/Adult leaders attending. This will be the last Camporee because we can not get the other troops to help and we have decided to call it quits. People are getting a little discouraged and tired. It is a good camporee. We change up the competitions each year and have plenty for the scouts to do. Do any of you have any advice as to how you would motivate the other troops to help. We have asked for help at the RT and do not get much of a response.

Yes, I am CC for the "Troop" not the Pack. I am a Webelos leader for the Pack. We are chartered through our church and meet on Sunday nights and are considered part of the Childrens Ministry. The "Scouting" program at the Church has been going on for over 20 years. Yet there are some new Leaders in the Church who I believe do not see the value in the program, especially the Cub Scout part of the "Scouts". We do not want to give them reason to cancel the Cub program. As I said I would only want to be there until they get a viable CM. Being CM is a big job. What we do have in our favor is that the Pack CC was the former CM and knows the in and outs of both positions. She really does not want to drop being CC and become the CM. She herself wanted to move up to the Troop but as I previously stated she stayed in her postion with the Pack to see if we could not get this situation straightened out. We still have some time before we have to re-charter.

We do have a Parents meeting coming up to explain the situation to them and hope we are able to at least get some of them to step up and "volunteer" to help in areas we need help. We do have a policy at our church that if a person already works in a ministry at the church we can not "recruit" them to work in another area of the church. They can, but they are the ones who have to offer their services. So most of the parents already serve in other areas and we have to walk a fine line in recruiting and that tends to limit their participation in the Cubs program. That is the situation.

Our pack is in need of a CM. I have been a Webelos leader the past 3 years. But I am also CC for our Troop. The Troop runs smooth, a lot of old time dedicated scouters involved who know what they are doing. The "Pack" though is in a little trouble. Lost 50% of our leaders. Including CM And Asst.CM and 3 den leaders. Right now we need A CM to be able to go on. The CC herself was going to move on since her son moved to the "Troop" 2 years ago, but has stayed on because of the situation. The CC and COR have been working diligently to get a candidate but as of yet have not recieved a positive response. As I am not overloaded as CC of the Troop, I am thinking of stepping in and offer my services As CM on a temporary basis. They would have to KEEP trying to find a permanent CM. I believe I am very close in being up to date on the training to be a CM. I know this would be a temporary fix but it would get us past a sticky situation for the moment. I also understand that it is not really the best situation, but some times we have to do what we have to do. Of course I would talk to the leaders of the "Troop'' before I did this and see what they think. Any Input?

We have had a cub in our "Pack" since he was a "Tiger" and who is now a 5th grade "Webelos". Now whether he has AS, I do not know. But from what has been described here, it sounds just like him. He is on medication. He has a lot going against him at home also. Remember, a kid does not get to choose the circumstances he is born into. He is watched at all times. Some "packs" would wash there hands of him. They would not put up with it. But this is about life and in the 5 years he has been in the "Pack" I do not believe we have had one "cub"/parent leave because of him. If they did, we did not know it. Has the pack suffered because of him, maybe a little. Are we equipped to handle him? We have been doing it so far. The other boys seem to be thriving and moving on. Kids are resilient, they bounce back. We will continue to pour our resources into this young man. "Scouting" seems to be the only bright spot in his life. We may come to point where we can not handle him any more and then a hard decision will have to be made. Many years have been invested in this young man, we are doing what we can. We do not want to "Throw" him away.

Over the Last month we have had 2 request by boys outside of our Troop asking us if we would hold a BOR for their advancement . One for Eagle and one for Life. Get this, both boy's Dads are SM's of the boy's troop and the Dad's who along with the boy's are the ones who requested it. One of the Troops is a very young Troop, that split from another Troop with very young leaders and the Dad wanted more "Seasoned" Scout Leaders putting his son through a BOR and said that this would be a one time event. I do not really know the reason for the second request because that boy does belong to a "Seasoned" Troop. We honored the one from "Young Troop" (Life) but we also have requested that if they do not know how to do a BOR or need pointers in giving a BOR to come and sit in on ours. The young man seemed very respectful, did not seem to have an attitude and was very knowledgeable and had his signed off book with him. He did a good job.

If a boy is a good and honest boy and you pretty well know he is on the up and up and not trying to pull a fast one, then under what circumstances would you give a BOR to a scout of another Troop? We questioned from the start what was going on here. One of our leaders, the one who was approached by the Dad , is a very honest steadfast scouter of 15 or more years and assured us that the Dad only wanted the boy to go through a BOR that was "Challenging" rather than one that was a little "Weak" so to speak. What do you think?

I apologies for the "Loop hole" terminology. I did not mean that in a bad way. We just wanted to find a way to get this done and of course use " Legal" means to do it. I come to this site for advice and some times I do get carried away . We are trying to work with the Council and had already discussed with them separate camp areas, BALOO, separate activities, parents/legal guardians, one night camp out, observation of "Scouts" only, no partaking in any kind of BSA activities. etc. etc. It all comes down to the interpretation of "separate camps" and in this one mans eyes the "Scouts" even being in the vacinity. I guess this is a lost cause. The "Cub" leaders really need to do this and we ( BSA Leaders) need to let them do it. If they do not get the job done, so be it. We were just trying to involve the younger guy's so they could enjoy this experience. So thank you for all of your advice.

KC,.you misunderstand. The scouts are going to do what scouts do on a Camporee. They will be doing Flint and Steel, Map and Compass. Dutch Oven Cooking as well as several other "competitions". I will not list them all. The Scouts are seperated from the Area where the "Festival" is taking place. There will be only 2 Scout "competition' events that will be open to the public to watch because the City requested that we do so and these events will take place during the "Festival" and on their site. What is the matter with showing off the "Scouts" talents? To me it creates "good will" all the way around. There is no volunteer work/service done for the city. Any way , thanks for your advice.

It may not be a good thing in your opinion, but the majority Sm's and Cub Masters in this area want to do this. This is an "Annual" event and in these circumstances they want the "Webelos" there. This would be the one and only yearly event that the local Council "webelos" would be allowed to do this.

KC, Thanks. That is basically the structure we were going for and we would follow all of the regs. as far as what the "Packs" need to do to camp over night. We may have the room for two separate camp sites. The problem then is what degree of separation between the two camps would have to be maintained to do this. 100 feet, two hundred feet and so on. But I do get the drift of what you are getting at. We would keep it to one night for the "Webelos" and they could only "Visit" the camporee as guest. I will present this to the Council again in the manner that you presented it to me and see if we can change their minds. If we got their approval I believe we could do it this year. If not we could do it next year.

KC, this is more than a "Camporee" it is also our cities "Fall Festival" and there are a lot of things going on. But the "Scouts" are up front in this and have been for several years. Until 2 years ago, the "Webelos" where there. Then the BSA "Legal" beagle bit us.

The City depends on us and wants us to do everything we can do to facilitate a good "Festival". There are old time situational re-enactments going on, we have Mountian men and old time "camp" set ups, skits between outlaws and Marshalls. People dressed in costumes of the late 1800's strolling around. All this is seperate from the "Scout" encampment. The "Scouts" then enter the "Old" time encampment area and are put front and center to demonstrate their skills. We consider it a win/win situation for us and the city. We would like to have the "Packs"/Webelos there if there is any way possible to do so. It would be a learning experience as well as possibly the highlight of the year for them. Thanks to all of you guy's for your suggestions.

Our Problem is that we have one guy who is adament in sticking to"National Policy" JUST ONE. He says "policy is policy." He has already shot us down. At "Roundtable" last night we discussed having the Webelos camp layed out like I explained in my original post. BOOM first thing this morning we got an E-mail from a big wig from the "Council" telling us it ain't going to happen. We would like a loop hole to get this thing done. This one guy has taken us hostage so to speak.

Yes,I Know that Webelos are still "Cub Scouts". I have been involved in being an assistant leader in the Pack and have been directly involved in the 4th and 5th grade Webelos end of it the past 2 years. With out going into a lot of detail, let me assure you that they are quite capable of handling a "camp Out" with the BSA, especially if it is set up the way we wanted to do it. (Check original Post)We would then drop the "Partaking in activities" and go with observation only. I totally agree with the statements that Brotherhood WWW had to stay. Quote: "Interaction between Webelos and Boy Scouts seems to me to be mutually beneficial. It helps make for strong Packs and strong Troops. It fosters relationships that can be deepened once the Webelos join the Troop." By the way I am the "Camporee Chair" and I and all of the other SM and Cub Masters want the "Webelos" there. But we cannot find a way around these regulations. I do not even know if we offered a "Weboree" that coincided with the "Camporee" with seperate camp sites and activities would satisfy the powers that be. We are going to be meeting with our DE next week to see if we can work this and other things out. This DE is young and has never been involved in "BSA" scouting before. She probably will follow the "Council" execs. Lead. Any more suggestions?

We are having our "Fall" Camporee coming up. There is some confusion as to wether the "Webelos" can camp out and join in the festivities. Here is how they would like to do it. The "Webelos" register with the "Troop" but they have their own camping area set up which is probably near the Troop but there would be a definite dividing "Line". Their encampment is totally on its own. Each of the "Webelos" either has to have a parent/legal gaurdian register and camp out with him also. The "Webelo", with "parent", in tow is allowed to partake in all of the activities and get a feel as to what "Scouting" is all about. We have legal "Beagles" tell us that this is in violation of regulations and that under no circumstances can the BSA and "Webelos" camp in the same outing together. We have others say that this ought to satisfy the "safety" regulations pertaining to this situation and their argument is that this is a "Council" event and a two and one half day "Camporee", not "Summer Camp." The "Webelos" are not camping with the BSA so to speak but are on thier own and because they do have a parent legal/gaurdian present that this should be allowed.. Opinions please.

Local, right now he is one of the most committed kids in his troop. I do not see that changing. It could though, he is only 14. Girls and Cars are in the future. He knows being elected to the OA is an honor. But I am wondering, how does an OA scout choose between the activities going on in the "troop" or the OA if they are scheduled at the same time? I guess that is part of growing up. He will just have to choose.

Oh and as far as him being busy. This will be only the Second "Camp Out" He has missed in the three and one half years since he crossed over (Over 30 of them.) He stays busy in the "Scouts". They average 10 to 12 campouts a year, "Summer Camps", Camporee's, two night outings, HA's etc. a year.

OK. He will wait then. This has been one big mess. From the SM all the way down. I tell you one thing, I am of the opinion that it is best that the SM himself should inform a boy of his election right off the bat. Then he should continue to keep him informed of "Call Out" opportunities etc. I know some Troops like to surprize the candidate, but with todays lifestyles , people need to plan ahead. Yes, he has missed opportunities from being "Called Out" to the "Ordeal" because the SM wanted to keep it a secret. I also found out that there was a mix up on his paper work on the "Lodge" end of it and they did not mail out his "Notification". He missed the "Call Out" ceremony because his whole troop elected to help another troop member with his Eagle project and voted to not attend the event. I ended up explaining to him what happened. He took it in stride. The "Ordeal" is being held in two weeks but he wants to honor a prior commitment that he had already made and will not be there because of that. But if he had known sooner he would be there. Well I guess there is next year.

Well for those of you who had read my prior question: "When does a boy find out if he has been elected for the OA?" I finally got the answer. To make a long story short he was selected. Enough said. He missed the "Call Out" because nobody notified him and now we have the problem in that he will not be attending the "Ordeal" because of prior commitments he had made and he wants to honor that commitment. Here is the question. I was told by an SM of another troop that he has boys that will not be attending the "Ordeal" because they also had other commitments and are not able to attend, but if they paid there "Dues" they would not have to be re-elected next year but would have to go to through the "Ordeal" next year to become a part of the OA, is that true?

CalicoPenn,

I have just gotten back from our Monday night Scout meeting. Haveing never been in the OA, I am not that knowledgeable in what the difference is in "call Out" or "Ordeal". But they did bring up the "ordeal" situation up tonight because of a scheduling conflict. (some Canoeing trip/some Ordeal) They where talking about 2 boys being "elected" and one of them was my son. It is a Fri-Sat-Sun timeline. I asked if he missed the weekend in question when the next "Ordeal" weekend would be. I was told that that weekend would be the last "Ordeal" weekend this year. I figured if he missed this one he would have to start the election process all over again. I then explained the situation to him and he understands. So its either "ordeal" Or Grandma, he has to make the decision.

I got my answer this afternoon from the SM. My son was voted in and needs to go through the "Ordeal". It seems that the SM wanted to keep it a secret. He was the one who was supposed to contact my son and was going to try and "spring" it on him at a camp that was having an "ordeal" ceremony. Because of this he missed an "ordeal" opportunity as he was helping another scout in his troop finish his Eagle project. The scout had time restraints that required it to be done ASAP which precluded my son attending the "ordeal" call out. The problems where not the fault of the "Eagle" scout. The whole troop had voted to cancel this particular camp-out and stay and help their fellow " Eagle" scout. If he had known he was up for the "ordeal" process I could have driven him to the "ordeal " location after ( 40 miles) he finished helping with the "Eagle" scout project. He then attended Summer camp in another Council's area where they where having a "ordeal" ceremony, but permission could not be obtained from them to include him for some reason. That is what the SM told Me.

Now his next "Ordeal" opportunity happens to fall on his Grandmothers 80Th birthday and knowing him, even if I told him he was going to be going through the "ordeal " process, he would choose to stay home and honor his Grandmother. Big plans have been made for her that day. The Camp where this is to take place is over 180 miles from where I live and I could not get him there in time for the ceremony. They do it at the evening campfire.

But we have a big "Fall Camporee" coming up and I am on the Camporee Committee, how out of line would I be in inquiring if a "ordeal" ceremony could be held there? This is a Council wide Camporee and we will also have several troops from other Councils coming. It is being held in conjunction with our cities annual "Fest" and they want The BSA to be heavily involved with scouting skills, demonstrations, skits , camping and so on. They are bending over backwards to accommodate us. So we could have a "Ordeal" ceremony and explain to the audience what it was about thereby killing two birds with one stone. Make the "City Fathers" happy as well as making the scouts who would go through the "ordeal" ceremony happy. Any thoughts. I am just afraid that his "year" to go through the "ordeal" process will slip by and he will have to go through all of this again.

All I can say is that I am happy that some body had the guts to stand up and complain about people leaving the camp site and cutting out before the camp is policed. Ive been there on a few occasions( Cub Scouts)and it disturbs me especially when its the Cubmaster and Assistant Cub Master that does it. AND as far as you speaking your mind ( if you do it in a civil matter) I would think that is one of the main parts of your job especially if it concerns BSA Scout policy. I would also think that the "Scout" Oath would be a small part of "Scout" policy, you Know" Helpful, courteous, freindly ,kind etc. etc and I would think picking up after yourself would be covered by that oath.

Do you mind sharing with us or hinting to us as to what the "Scout" needed to finish up to satisfy the BOR? Was it as serious as him flat out not earning a required badge or was somebody just being plain picky? One time are SM would not sign off on a young man who had earned his "Eagle" because he was not in full "A" uniform at the time of the BOR. He was wearing blue jeans. Needless to say that decision caused a few sparks to fly. But the way the SM looked at it, the Scout needed to be in his Full uniform on such an auspicious occasion. There was no doubt that the boy had earned his "Eagle" rank. To this day the young man admits that scouting may have saved his life. Before Scouting" he was nothing but a trouble maker. Caused a lot of problems. But the leaders did not give up or throw him to the woods. Thats what Scouting can do. It gives a kid the chance to focus and a sense of accomplishment when he does good. It gives a boy self self worth.

The SM and the great majority of the other adult leaders in our troop have picked out where we are going on the "Troops" big outing next year. This was not discussed with the boys nor where they given an option nor asked their advice as to where "They" may want to go. I understand every troop has economics to work out and I believe the adults chose this particuliar trip because of the cost. More bang for the buck so to speak. Do not get me wrong, its a great trip. BUT if this is truly a "Boy" led Troop, I believe that the boy's should at least have input in to where they would like to go and then have the adults explain to them the good and bad of each "Trip" they want to take. Money, distance, transportation etc, etc,. I am pretty sure if the boy's had a chance to vote on it, this trip the adults picked out would not be the one they would prefer. Any input?