Crossramwedge

Answer me this. Our troop attended summer camp. We pre-registered and sent in the list Of Merit Badges the boys would like to achieve. Well when we got there they had no record of the Merit Badges and proceeded to put the boys in different classes because most of requested classes where full. Some of the badges of course required that you where supposed to meet some of the requirements before you came. In this case the boy's would have to complete them after they left. In that situation who then signs off on the requirements that could not be completed at camp. What if you do not have A MB counselor locally that could sign off the remaining requirements? The standard operating procedure around here is to allow the SM sign to off on it. Of course he would have studied the requirement and made sure that it was completed to what he felt was adequate to satisfy that requirement.

You are not going to convince parents like that that a "Boy Led" troop is the way to go. They want structure, control. They want a monthly written report as to how Johnny is doing. Boy led Troops can be chaotic and look disorderly at times.

Take our case, we are a small Troop amongst bigger fish. But you know what, at almost every Camporee or event where several Troops are involved we normally always finish in the top three. In fact in the last 2 events we have taken the top awards given by the Districts involved. In one of the last events we went to a Camporee (out of District)and walked away with their top District Award that gets passed off every year to the event winners of the Camporee. First time in the History of that Districts Fall Camporee that an Out of District troop won it.They made us promise to come back so that their District gets a chance to win it back. We are now making plans to go back in September and give them a chance to do just that.

I believe in my heart of hearts that the main reason we do do well in competitons is that we are Boy led. It is in that atmosphere that the boys learn hands on. The older boy's mentoring the younger kids. The ups and downs of lessons learned when a project goes well or when it falls apart. Thats how the boys really learn.

If a boy who comes from a boy led troop earns "Eagle" and competes

against Adult led "Eagles" in any competition, the Boy led Eagle will come out on top almost every time. A "Factory" Eagle is just that, Machine built.A boy led Eagle, like a Rolex watch, is hand built with blood, sweat and tears. HIS. Does the Adult led Eagle deserve his reward, yes he does. But a boy led "Eagle" just like that Rolex being hand built is more refined, smoother around the edges and over all is of better quality. Why because he and his fellow Troop members built him to what he is, a True Eagle.

Oh, by the way my kids are homeschooled. It is true there are

a lot of strict, hands on parents out there, but there are also a lot of us who let our kids advance on their own (with a little push here and there) Will I be dissapointed if my son does not earn "Eagle" yes I will, but he is the one earning it , not me.

Its his battle, not mine. I will still be very proud of him. I will know that even if he does not earn it, it is not the end all to be all.I would rather he earn it than to go through some "Eagle" factory and have had it handed to him. That does not teach him a thing.

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I attended WB as A CC. Do not worry about it. All of your questions will be answered as you take the course. Your ticket will be written before you leave the course. It will be looked over and approved by your Ticket Counselor and the SM for WB. They will advise you and guide you.

To give you an example, one of my ticket items was to hold a "Merit Badge" day that would be open to any one who wanted to attend free of charge. This helped my troop as well as other scouts in other troops. You will have a good time. Relax and enjoy the ride.

We hold a "Shooting Camporee" every other year. A local gun club lets us camp out and use their facilities, We have target (22)rifle shooting, Shotgun clay shooting, Bow and arrow and tomahawk throwing. We provide all meals and basically make it a fun Camporee. The boys enjoy it and some have even said that it is the most enjoyable camporee that they attend. We have two range masters on hand at all times. We are planning to have another one this Spring.

I chaired a Camporee a couple of years ago. Went through all of this Webelos/Scout camping mess. ScoutNut is correct. Webelos are not allowed to spend the night or take part in activities at a Boy Scout Camporee. They can visit but have to leave at night.

Webelos are encouraged to camp with a Troop (one on one and one night at a time) to experience what Scouting is about, just not at a Camporee. Agree or disagree that is how it is.

Some People even say that holding a Weblosree and a Camporee at the same time in the same vicinity of each other (though there are seperate Camping and activity areas) is skirting the intention of this policy. Go figure.

We have procedures to deal with problem "scouts". None of them include immediate dismissal. We first let the SM handle the problem scout by talking to him and try to lead him in the right direction. This may include some sort of suspension or dismissal from an over night camp out. The parents would be informed of the action taken and why it was taken. If problems persist his parents will need to come in and take part in a "problem solving" conference. At a minimum this meeting would include the Parents, the boy, SM and CC. It also might include the SPL if need be. If it is a problem with another boy, he may also be called in along with his parents. Then the last straw would include the COR and CC getting involved if the problems still persisted and depending on their meeting with the SM, Scout and Scout's parents, the COR and CC will decide the scouts fate.

Remember that we have kids diagnosed with all sorts of problems joining scouts. Not only the physically handicapped, but kids with ADD, ADHD, Turret's etc. The BSA looks upon these "scouts" as having a disability. Its possible that some kids problem could be attributed to the scout having an un-diagnosed "disability" that could be attributed to the majority of his misbehavior problems.

For instance years ago we had a young man in our troop that was a holy terror. He was unruly and had a very bad temper. His Mom and Dad tried everything. He joined the scouts and there where times when the Scout leaders in the troop just wanted to tear their hair out at some of the stuff he pulled. They literally had to assign an adult leader to watch and be around him at all times. As the years went by he matured. He settled in. Went on to earn his "Eagle" and is now married and expecting his first child. His parents attribute his maturing and growing up to his being in the scouts. They (and even he) have said that if it where not for the scouts they would not know where he would be today. So we need to understand who we are as Scout leaders and that it is about the boy's and only the boy's. We need to give the boy's as many chances as we can and dismissal from a troop must only be the last resort taken to solve the "Problem".

Yes, you can move on and join another troop. It is not any body's business but your own to move on. But it may behoove you to go ahead and go before the committee and see what they have to say. It may just be a big understanding. Now if your son is being accused of something by another scout that was not witnessed by an adult then I would inform the committee that it is only fair that all parties be at the meeting. This would include the SM, CC and any and all witnesses, the parents of the kids involved as well as the scouts involved. After the meeting if you feel that your son has been wronged then go and join another troop. I must warn you that SM's know each other so do not be surprised if you are grilled about the circumstances that led your son to leave his former troop.

In the same instance if you see that your son did something that was "wrong" please accept their finding. If possible try and work things out. If a "dismissal" decision stands then move on. I personally think that dismissing a boy from the troop with out giving him a chance for redemption is not the right course to be taken. It would have to be a very bad situation before we as a troop would dismiss a scout with out going the extra yard to see that the scout is given every opportunity to straighten up

Our troop has gone through similiar scenerios. SM steps down and no one wants the SM position. It has happened twice in the past 3 years. How we essentially handled for a little while it was a SM in name only. The "appointed" SM does go through the training and is registered as SM but the troop is ran on a shared responsibility basis. We got together and discussed situations. The boys essentially ran the program. Is this the best way to run a troop NO. Can it work under certian circumstances ? Yes, it can. For how long? Who knows. We now have a committed SM, but a lot of the work is still being handled by ASM's, CC, and other adult leaders.

One of the former SM Stepped down because his job and his SM position where interferring in his family life. He had to give up Scouting completely. You need to take care of your family. If takeing on the SM position will cause dissension between you and your wife then do not take the poaition. Its not worth it. Family first. Good Luck.

There is nothing wrong with a bunch of like minded individuals getting together and going to play Laser tag outside of Scouting. If my son threw a personal Birthday Party are you telling me that because the Majority of his freinds are in his Troop they can not go Laser tagging because they are Scouts and at Scout functions they have a rule against human targeting with laser guns or paint balls? If it is not a Scout function and the kids are told it is not a scout function and kids arrive on their own brought by their parents then its just a bunch of kids getting together to have fun. Period. They are not attending a Scout function and as long it is legal and not immoral there is no reason for friends not to meet outside of Scouting and participate in a fun activity. Thats not breaking or skirting the Scout Oath or Laws.

We have a single who Mom wants to go BSA camping with her son and wants to bring 10 year old daughter with them. I am getting flack as CC as to having any women go camping let alone have a 10 year old girl tag along and camp with us. Some in the Troop want to have a meeting and vote on wether to let her go camping or not. I know that I have the power to make this decision on my own if need be. We have been rolling along for years with out any problems. So this has thrown a klinker in our smooth sailing.

We have a couple of guys in the troop who have for years been the backbone of the Troop. Big money, time, supplies etc. They asked nothing in return. I have found out that one of them is adament about not haveing women on BSA camp outs. He is a ASM. One of the Founders of the Troop so to speak. His argument is the age old argement of "Scouting is for Boys" and he also has personal religious convictions that precludes him from being around un-married or women whose husbands are not around. I also tend to believe that our CO (Church) would not want a single Mom to go camping with us. I am going to check with them.

I know that BSA policy is that Women be allowed to go on Camping trips. I do believe that she needs to register and at least become a CM if she wants to go camping. But I do not feel that it is appropiate to drag along a 10 year old girl on camp outs. As a replacement for that We could designate a couple of camp outs a year to be "Family Friendly" and open them up to any family members who want to camp out.

The other problem is this gentleman, I would hate to see him go. It would not be a good thing for the Troop.

I know this has been probably discussed before, but I need some advice. We have a single MOM , late 20's that wants to join her son on Camp outs. He just crossed over from a visiting pack. I am the CC and have never had any problems in 3 years to really deal with. I have been blessed in this area. I am one of the newer members of the troop (4 YEARS). We have one gentleman who is and has been one of the main cogs for the Troop (ASM)for several years. He is serious about no women camping. I know that the BSA does not descriminate against women and If she joins the Troop as a Committee member she should be allowed to go on the camp outs. I could deal with it. She would have to be informed on how the troop performs on camp outs, no bathroom facilities, no mothering etc. Here is the kicker, she has a 10 year old daughter that she wants to bring along. It just further complicates the situatuon. I am leaning toward telling her to get some one to watch her daughter instead if trying to bring her on these camp outs. Then I hope and pray that men do not leave the Troop because of this. The ones who may leave are really the backbone of the Troop and it would not be a good thing to lose them.

The CO is the one who is supposed to Choose and appoint the COR. But that does not mean that you cannot relay your concerns and suggestions to the SM,CC, IH and his/her staff. From my point of view I would at least want my COR to be a person who was the outdoor type. He/She needs to be a person of good moral character and a good listener. Preferebly a former scout or may be a person with a military back ground. Somebody who has the ear of the Pastor and movers and shakers. The COR doesn't have to go camping or attend Scout meetings, but it would be nice for him/her to make a showing every now and then.

When my son was a Bear he built a Car from the kit that was supplied to him by the Pack. The kit was an official BSA pinewood Deby Kit. When we took the car to the race and it went through the inspection it was disqualified because it had an elongated wheel base. My son did not know any better and neither did I. After all it was an official kit. Apparently the axles slots where mis cut and it caused the wheel base to be elongated. The axles where located to far apart. He did not get to race because He could not move the axles. Always check your official cars to make sure that it fits the "legal dimensions and descriptions" of an official Pinewood derby car.

That episode caused me to become a knowledgeable "Pinewood" Derby car Inspector. I have been the Chief inspector at several "Pinewood" Derbys. Let me tell you that unless you know what to look for a car may look completely legal. Yet it may be constructed with "illegal" items bought over the internet that give the car a winning edge that is nearly impossible for a legal car to over come. You have official BSA axles that have been trued, straightened, lathed and polished by machinery that cost several thousand dollars. The same is true with official BSA wheels. Machinery is used to lathe the wheels for roundness and lightness. The machinery is computer operated. 90% of these types of axles and wheels are illegal as described by "Official BSA" rules and regulations that are used for the "Normal" type of Pinewood Derby races held for Cub Scouts.

Most of the time these cars get past a "Pack" inspector and move on to a District race. The problem comes in when a guy like me may be sitting behind the inspection desk. I have caught several of these cars and have had to disqualify them. The first line of defense ( From the Dad, Grandad ect.) is that the car passed the "Pack" Inspection. Why? Because the "Pack" inspector did not know what to look for. We keep a supply of official wheels and axles on hand so these Cars can be "repaired" and the Cub can possibly still get to race the car.

I am going to be inspecting cars at a District event in a couple of weeks. I will be suprised if I do not have to disqualify two or more cars for "Blatant" illegal equipment used on some these cars. Whom pays for this, the Cub. Its A shame.

Some may say just let the Cubs race the illegal cars. No big deal. HMMMM? I say what about honesty, fairness and rewards earned for hard work.

Here is a letter that was reiceved by a fellow scouter friend after they inquired with the local Scout Exec/CEO of our council about the new medical forms. Hope it will shed some light on this subject. Here it is:

Subject: New BSA Medical Form

>

>

>

> At today's meeting we discussed the new BSA Medical

> form and the

> requirement to follow the height/weight (H/W) chart. I

> have talked with

> Richard Bourlon at the National office and received some

> clarification.

> I will do my best to communicate the message that I took

> away from that

> conversation.

>

> It would be very rare circumstances that would require a

> Cub Scout or

> Cub Scout Parent to adhere to the H/W chart. Activities

> such as

> resident camp generally have drive in camp sites or camp

> sites that are

> a short distance from parking. Also, all BSA resident

> camps have

> medical personnel on site. For these activities the

> physical exam is

> required but the H/W chart is not a requirement.

>

> The emergency evacuation clause requiring a 30 minute

> radius refers to

> the point at which you would exit the "trail".

> If you hike or in some

> other way travel into the backcountry more than 30 minutes,

> the H/W

> chart must be used. An example is if a Venture Crew

> travels at 15

> minutes per mile, they would have to travel more than 2

> miles into the

> backcountry for the H/W chart to be implemented.

>

> I asked about Woodbadge and was told that the H/W chart

> would not apply

> unless it was one of the walking Woodbadge courses that

> take you more

> than 30 minutes from a trailhead. Since our course is

> conducted at our

> camp, we have access that would cause participants to need

> the physical

> exam without the added requirement of the H/W chart.

>

> The National Jamboree will not require participants to meet

> the ranges

> specified on the H/W chart. Medical attention can be

> provided on site

> and only the physical will be required. An interesting

> point is that so

> far, 79.1% of those attending the Jamboree as staff members

> are outside

> the acceptable ranges specified on the H/W chart. They

> will not have to

> diet to qualify for participation.

>

> I let him know that this form does not read at all like he

> explained.

> Apparently I was not the first call he has had. He did say

> that they

> are using the MyScouting forum to gather information and

> post FAQ's as

> new questions arise. If you can, check out the information

> available on

> that site under "Scouting Safely" and provide

> your feedback.

So glean from that what you can.

You have forgotten the one thing that kept us from getting a Bus.

Insurance. Cost prohibitive. For the little use the Bus would get, we found the insurance was to steep for us.

Eagle>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>just finished 2nd week end of training. Had a Great time. Just as there are those who are curious about the 21st century course, I am sure that there are those of us that are wandering what the former course was like. But most of all let us all realize what we have accomplished, wether one went through the former course or the 21st century course. There ought to be a "Course" designed that one could take to sort of merge the two and allow "Woodbadgers" as a whole meld together and not have this divide between the former course and the 21st century course. It is not fair in my humble opinion, to exclude a "Woodbadger" from being on staff because he did not take the 21st century course. If thats the case then you might as well throw out the ticket item about "Diversity". We are not even following that item ourselves

Cub scouts are not allowed to camp out on a camporee with "troops" present. They may visit the camporee during the day and to take part in the events that are age/skill appropiate. They are allowed to camp out with a troop for a regular camping event for one night . The parents/gardians are supposed to be there with them.

You have done all you can do. Its a shame. The kid himself may want to be in the program but is at the mercy of the parents.

An extra 10 minutes after the meeting is not going to hurt anybody if it stays to the ten minutes and it has so far. In the Scoutmaster handbook this same scenerio is suggested with both the SPL and Pl's attending the meeting and it also states that the SPL/PL meeting should be held after the regular Scout meeting. That is what he wants to do. The SM knows about the kids getting home. Thats why he was trying to keep it to the SPL and another adult and let the other boys go home. He basically is going by the book so to speak.

Eagle90, that is what is suprising. These guy's are completely dedicated. Everyone of our leaders are trained for their individual postions. Most of them are cross trained as I am. (Venture, Cubs and Scouts) I am cross registered in all 3 and help in some areas in all of them. Some of the other leaders also wear many hats. Dedication is not the problem. Some may say that a few of us carry too big a load. That may be true.

To clarify things, the SM is the one who wants to keep the regular 90 minute meeting time. Then after the regular meetimg concludes at 8:30 he wants to meet with the SPL for around ten minutes. Again in lieu of this it has been suggested to him by some of the other leaders to shorten the "regular" meeting ten minutes (7:00 to 8:20 PM)then dismiss the boys and then have his meeting with the SPL, there by technically keeping the time (7:00 to 8:30 PM).

I support the SM and the extra 10 minute reflection time he wants to have with the SPL to be held after the regular meeting. If we called the regular meeting at 8:20 I feel that we would be cheating the other boys of that time. Everything else would have to be speeded up and time is tight enough as it is. If I had my way I would like to meet from 6:30 to 8:30 PM.

You find that in the Scout Master's Handbook it suggest that after the regular meeting the SM then meets with the SPL and the Patrol leaders to to review the meeting, go over the plans made at the patrol Leaders Council meeting and decide which patrol will be the upcoming service patrol. In my opinion this is basically what the SM is trying to do.

He asked if I wanted to call a Committee meeting and discuss which way we wanted to go. The problem is that some of these leaders who want the regular meeting over at 8:20 and then have the 10 minute SPL meeting are on the Committee and if we had a vote take place they would sway the vote. On the other hand I feel that the SM and I as the CC have the right to make this call without the Committee having to vote on it. Let me again state that everyone of these leaders are trained and dedicated and both of us respect them and their opinions, but we happen to disagree with them on this one.

Our new SM wants to change the format of our meetings. He is a seasoned Scout of 20 years. We normally meet from 7:00PM to 8:30 PM on Monday nights. After the "meeting" he would like for him and the SPL to have a time of discussion and reflection. No more than ten minutes. This would also require another adult to be there because of the "No one on one" rule. In lieu of this he has been asked by some of the other leaders to shorten the regular "meeting" ten minutes, dismiss the boys and then have his meeting with the SPL there by technically keeping the time (7:00 to 8:30 PM).

Just to let you know he stepped up to SM before the end of last year as at that time our SM resigned with out any warning. Family and new job responsibilities required him to do so. The new SM took on the job when no one else would. At that time he told us that he was going to make changes and some of them may not be popular. He wanted our backing and we gave it to him. He is a good man and a good Scout leader. He is not young and he is retired but is still very active and rarely misses a camp out. He does believe in the "Boy led" troop. His son was the first "Eagle" scout to come out of our troop. The CO is happy with him and has complete confidence in him.

He asked me as CC what I thought about this situation. I told him as far as I am concerned he is the SM and as such he sets the program. I told him I thought the boys needed the full 90 minute meeting time and that meeting with the SPL for ten minutes after the regular time is just a part of being a leader in the troop. Leadership comes with responsibilities and commitments that a person has to bear that others don't. That is why a leader is put in that role. I will stay after the regular meeting time if no one else will. He would prefer the ASM's be there though.

I know people want to get home but this only involves the SM, SPL and another adult. I went to the meeting last night after a 15 hour work day and I am 57 years old. Surely we can handle this. Any thoughts?

We do a similiar thing when we have a Crossover ceremony where we present the "Arrow of Light" and have the Webelos crossover to the Boy Scouts. Members of the Order of the Arrow from the Scouts help us with this . It is done very professionally and they perform a Dance Ceremony while being dressed up in Indian Costumes. Yes, they do know what the dances mean and on most occasions they explain what the dances mean before they perform them. By the way we are no longer allowed per Edict by National to refer to the costumes as "Regalia". Do not ask me why. Makes no sense to me.

This ceremony has been going on for years around our area and this is the first time I actually have heard anyone object to it. Yes we need to respect the traditions and life style of others. These ceremonies are done with the deepest respect of our Native American friends. I live on the border of Arkansas and Oklahoma. We are very rich in Indian heritage. No one here has raised up one question about these ceremonies. AND YES our Native American friends know that these ceremonies take place. Some of them have sons in scouting. We need to lighten up. If the Scouts/Cubs in the area of your country do not want to use this type of ceremony in their Troop/Den then so be it. But please do not try and dictate to the rest of us how we should conduct our Arrow of Light/Crossover ceremony.

Just to let you know I am the CC for the "Troop" and am just trying to facillitate a resolution to the problem. I as CC of the Troop as well as our Scoutmaster have gotten involved at the request of the CC of the Pack. If it where not for that we would not be involved in this. As you can imagine we do not want to lose the Pack. We are looking at 4 Webelos crossing over this year. It would not be a good thing to lose our pack. Our pack was considered to be one of the top Packs in the area. But things can turn around fast. For your information the Troop does not meet on a Church night. We found out that it is better that way.

Scoutnut wrote "In your case, the church is effectively tying your Pack's CC's hands and stopping them from recruiting leaders instead of fulfilling their function as CO and ensuring the Pack has sufficient leadership. As the CC of the Troop you can not even solicit help from your Boy Scout parents because of the CO's volunteerism rules."

That is how we see it also. Up until this last year we always had "Adequate" help. People would volunteer if we "quietly" let them know we needed the help. But this year it did not work out.

The school is supported by 3 different church's and each church houses a portion of the school on it's "Campus". Our CO happens to have the elementary part of the school on its property and is really the "head" Church of the Group. The principle and several of the teachers come from our church.

The Scout program is considered a "ministry" of the church and because it is considered that we also have to follow certian "rules" that pertains to "Church Ministries". The LDS have certian rules that they follow and in this particulair instance so do we. Particularily when it comes to asking for help. For instance, if a person is already involved in another "ministry" in the church we are not allowed to actively "recruit" that same person for a Scout Leader/helper. Do not want to over load them. Recruiting a non-member of the church is also frowned upon even though we have a couple of them that would help. This does not mean that if a person already has a "position" in a ministry of the church they can not help the Scouts. If they want they can, we just can not actively recruit them

The Cub CC is up to speed on this and has talked to the COR. The CC is trying to set up a meeting with our CO. The UC goes to our church and is a friend of mine. I will call the UC and see what the UC knows.

THe "angst" happened when nobody in the Pack knew what was happening and found out by accident. The CO should have contacted the CC and let them know what they where thinking before contacting the DE and started this procedure. At least that is my opinion.

I agree with what Pack 378 said. I have thought that myself. Changing the day we meet is a good ideas and just as Pack 378 said the boys and parents who want to be there will be and the ones who do not will fall away.

The Troop is well aware of what is going on and has interceded on the Cubs behalf. Two of The original founders of the Pack/Troop have gone to bat for the Cubs, though one of them is no longer really involved with the Pack/Troop he is still looked up to and respected by the CO on these matters. The other founder is still heavily involved in the Troop. (SM) . The leaders in the Pack/Troop have complete trust in them. The Packs CC and CM still want to approach the CO. They still do not really know what is going on and would like a little input in this procedure. The Pack as it stands now needs to be restructured and we definitely need more help. The Parents of the Cubs really need to be informed of what the program is about and that they need to get involved.

The school is a private school and in fact is heavily backed and supported by the CO. It is located on the CO's property. This may work out if this comes about. The original Pack would have to dissolve. The "New" CO would have to get the Pack Chartered, provide trained leaders and so on. They then could meet on another night other than Sunday nights. The other thing that happens is that the boy's would be there for the "Pack" instead and not be mixed up with the boy's who are dropped off at the church while the parents go in to the service thereby basically providing a baby sitting service.

The Troop should still have a "Feeder" pack. Its just a shame that a 30 year old Pack would go under for this to come about.

I learned last night that the CO of our pack is thinking of dissolving our Pack. Our CO is a good size church and the pack has been in existance since 1988. We have 60 kids in the Pack. Last year we lost our CC,CM,ACM,Event person and a Bear leader. Our old CM moved up to be this years CC but only did so because she relized that we where in trouble. She had wanted to move on to a District position. We got a new CM just recently because he knew that we would fold without one and essentially was "forced" to take the position. We picked up one more volunteer, new to scouting. The CO did not notify any one of their wanting to shut us down. We found out because the DE (NEW, no Scout experience) talked to our Webelos 1 leader (40 years in scouting)wanting to know if it was possible to move our Charter to a nearby school. She did not know he was involved in our pack. To make a long story short, we have been struggling all year because we have little help and we can not seem to get the parents of our kids to get involved. They do not help the kids meet their goals so the kids can advance. There is only so much we can do in our meetings. The parents have to be involved also. We meet on Sunday nights and basically have became a baby sittiing service. The Boy Scouts are also chartered by this church but are doing fine and they are not in danger of losing their charter. I am involved in the Cubs, Scout's and a Crew. Plate is full. Time to fight? Suggestions ?