CNYScouter

Sorry OGE i didn't understand your post. Are you suggesting maybe to extend the Venturing program to younger kids? Boys and girls from 10 to 14 (5th to 8th grade) with the same methods? I think the ages would need to be seperated and not open a crew to younger than 14 or 9th grade (high school age) but it may draw a whole new set of kids. What would this be called? Venturing Pack? Venturing Troop? Venturing Group? Venturing Squad? Venturing Circle? Venturing Team?

OGE writes: Does anybody see how Arts and Hobby, or a Religious Life, or Sports Venturing Crew with youth 14 to 21 would work with the parallel BSA program? Outdoors is not a method of Venturing. High Adventure is. High Adventure to an Outdoor oriented Venturing Crew is different than High Adventure to an Arts and Hobby Venturing Crew. If you use the philosophy of: Its not the destination thats important; its how you get there. The trips a crew does is not importantas long as the youth do all the planning for a trip, the youth can learn the same set of skills if a Arts and Hobby Venturing Crew does a trip to a museum or Religious Life does a trip to a youth rally or if a Sports Venturing Crew does a trip to a major sporting event as the outdoor crew does in planning a backpacking or canoe trip. The Aims of Scouting can still be taught with these types of crews. CNYScouter

I received a letter yesterday that explains why I hadn't heard about the Wood Badge course I have sign up for. It has been canceled due to lack of participants. NE-III-174 Aug. 19-21, 2005 Aug. 9-11, 2005 I am greatly disappointed as I was looking forward to taking this. I couldn't make it 2 years ago when it was offered for the first time in our council in over 10 years. I'm checking with near-by councils to see if there any openings in their courses. It seems this is happening a great deal in my council. Over the last few years I have seen the follwing courses canceled due to lack of participants: The last BALOO training was 3 years ago when I took it. The last WEBELOS Leader outdoor training was 2 years ago when I took it. This was the first time it was held in 3 years. The council hasn't held a Train the trainer (I forgot the new name)course in 2 years Our district has stopped having training at monthly Roundtable because no one would sign up. The only training that been full is the SM training although the year I took the WEBELOS Outdoor training I was told that is was almost canceled but they had a group sign up at the last minute that gave them enough to hold it. Is any one else seeing this happen in their area? CNYScouter

Got back from the doctors visit. Not much more to filling out from the class I/II they just need to go back through my records and get a few more things to add. Because of the form and as I have high BP he did do a EKG to check everything was Ok. It was. CNYScouter

I'm headed to Wood Badge in a month and also am dealing with the health form. Is a full physical required for this form? I'm going to the doctors today and I am hoping I can get this filled out then. If it werent for this forum, I wouldn't even know that the class 3 is required. I've yet to receive any information, except a your signed up, about the course. I've been in touch with the course director and Ive been told that information was coming soon but havent seen anything yet. I would think that if a physical was required I should have been told about this 4 months ago when I sent in my deposit. CNYScouter

Of a 'Consequences Policy' you may may want to try www.classb.com (yes, the t-shirt place) On this site it has for downloading a training course outline called: "W.I.S.E." "A method for building a Boy Run Troop". In this it has a handout for The 7 steps of discipline: 1. The scout will be warned by the Patrol Leader 2. The scout will be warned by the SPL and the Patrol Leader 3. The Scout will be required to write and sign a note acceptably explaining his inappropriate behavior. 4. The Scout will meet with the PLC for counseling 5. The Scout, his parent(s), and the Scoutmaster will meet. 6. The Scout will not be allowed to participate in the next 3 Troop activities. 7. The Scout will be expelled from the Troop. I hope this helps CNYScouter

Due to the Pack that my two oldest sons were in has folded; I have been on the lookout for a pack to join when my youngest is old enough for Cubs. I have had the opportunity, though my Scouting connections, to meet some of the Adult Leaders involved with two of the packs that I would consider. These packs are both in the same town and draw from the same pool of kids with no other packs involved. Here is the Tale of Two Cub Packs: Pack 1 80+ cubs. They pretty much follow the program. They encourage training for their leaders and have most of their leaders trained with a couple that have taken Wood Badge. Every month I see at least the CC at roundtable and often there are other leaders from the pack there. They run a successful spring and fall recruitment program. Pack 2 around 20 cubs. They have decided to do their own thing. I was told by one of the leaders that they decided not to be a model BSA Cub Pack. Not very much into training and I have never seen anyone from the pack at roundtable. Have a real problem recruiting new cubs into the Pack. I actually had an adult leader of Pack 2 tell me that council has told Pack 1 not to do spring recruitment as they are recruiting all the cubs into their pack and leaving none for his pack. I sat at the same table with the leaders of Pack 1 at the roundtable when How to run a spring recruitment drive was the monthly theme. I do not remember seeing any leaders from Pack 2 at the roundtable. Our District Cub roundtable attendance is small, usually around 15-20, so you get to know everyone there pretty well. From these two Packs, I know what conclusions I can draw about following the program and attending training and which one I would select for my son. How about you? CNYScouter

Thanks for all for your advice. I am now the happy owner of a canoe. We struck a deal at $200 and both of us came away happy. For a 20+-year-old canoe, it was in great shape. 1 very small dent from moving it up and down a steep bank to get it into the water. He painted the outside last year and the inside was the original paint with no scratches. Paddles looked like they had never been in the water. CNYScouter

I've already told my two oldest which are boys (16 & 13) that they are going to have to help me dig a moat and put up the barbwire fence next year when their sister turns 13. CNYScouter

I am pretty sure this is not the case. I am not the only one who is developing plans to improve areas in the troop. We have others putting together plans on ways to better communications, on recruiting and retaining scouts, improving in FCFY and other topics. In fact, I was stuck with these two topics because I was the new guy and no one else wanted them. We were all asked to put together a plan and ways to implement our topics. I did say at this meeting that my son had been in the Troop almost 3 months and I had yet seen his patrol act like a unit. He had been on 3 camping trips but he hadnt had to plan a meal or go shopping for food as a patrol (an adult handled all of this). I was not alone in this assessment and do have support from a couple of other parents on this. Every parent at this meeting wanted their sons to become better leaders. I was told that leadership was one of the areas they had been concentrating on to improve last year. The problem I see is that they didnt put any effort into using the patrol method as they felt is wasnt important to teach leadership. Nor had they used any other method to support the teaching of leadership. At the meeting, we discussed areas that needed improvements. Looking over these areas, I see that these equate to each method of scouting. I also see that each is being handled as a separate topic with no relationship between each. I want to be associated with a great Troop not a mediocre one. I was in a very good Troop as a Scout and I want that for my son.

Dkurtenbach You have stated the exact problem I am facing. The other leaders in the Troop feel that one of the components is not necessary for the machine to run smoothly or that a substitute piece will work just as well. You say that we should just follow the program and that we dont need to know the hows and whys. But the group of people I am working with, they are Doctors, Lawyers, CPAs and CEOs. We have an ASM who designs advanced weaponry systems for the military and our SM is the head of Food Service in the largest School district in the area. This people have been trained not take things at face value, to question every thing and need to now the hows and whys before they. From the last meeting we had I can see that these other leaders are treating the methods as if they are each a stand-alone concept. They do not see that they are all related and you need all the pieces in place to make things work. Personally I am interested in the hows and whys of the methods and want to expand energy to increase my knowledge in the area of scouting. I find the complex inter-relationships between the methods interesting and if I can better understand how the methods are related I feel I can try to present a better program. I cannot find anywhere that discusses these relationships so I asked about these on this forum. I have been given two tasks for this summer and will be presenting these at a committee meeting at the end of Aug.. The first is to present a detailed plan on the patrol method and how to improve on it in the Troop. The second is to present a detailed plan on how to improve youth leadership in the Troop. I wont get very far in trying to convince other leaders to use the methods if my only plan is to tell them to Follow the Program. My goal is to show how to use the methods of scouting to improve each of these. For the patrol method I want to begin the plan with a short bulleted list on keys to understand the patrol method I then want to show how each method supports the patrol method Next, I want to give ways to improve patrol identity in the Troop. First, with overall ways such as earning the Honor Patrol Award and doing patrol outings. I then want to present specific things to do or not to do to improve the patrol method. I want to do something similar with improving leadership. CNYScouter

BW- I really like the woodworking and toolbox analogy. I'll have to borrow this when I try to explain the use of methods Thanks CNYScouter

You have been great given me answers about the patrol method so I can present a plan to the SM and troop committee on how to better use it in the Troop. The other plan I have been asked to put together in on ways to improve the youth leadership training in the troop. Again I am not looking for ways to implement training but the keys in teaching leadership in the Troop. Actually, I think I have a good idea of the BSA program for training: Use the Patrol Method. Teach the Boys with JLT. Practice leadership in the weekly Troop meetings Put leadership to use in the Outdoor activities. I think I read here on the forum about a youth in Scouting learns leadership by doing and not by sitting down and having someone lecture about it. I saw where someone broke this as a Scout learns 10% from training and the rest by doing. I also saw someone challenge these numbers. Does anyone have the actual breakdown of this? However, I have the problem that the SM and CC do not like the BSA JLT because it stresses the Patrol Method. They would like to find a better way to teach leadership. The feeling I get from the other adult leaders is that they are looking for instant results to teach the boys leadership. They seem to think there is a magic technique where they can sit these boys down and tell them how to be leaders and that instantly it turns these boys into leaders. I understand that learning leadership takes time. It is not taught overnight and takes time to nurture and cultivate. So, I am not sure how to approach this and I am looking for suggestions.

I have purchased "The Scoutmaster's Other Handbook" by Mark A. Ray. I already read it. And I have already passed it on to another leader in the troop to read it. I have to say that that I understand when it is said that the 8 methods are the tools to use to achieve the Aims of Scouting. When it is said that these methods should be applied and worked with on an equal basis tells me that they are all inter-related. W hat I get from looking at the methods and figuring out how they are related and how they each help to reinforce one another, I can easily see that you do not need anything else but these 8 methods to achieve the Aims of Scouting From these relationships, it is clear to me that if you focus on only some of the methods, some of the other methods will not be effective. The difficultly is seeing all the relationships between the methods and trying to explain to others how the methods all work together, equally to achieve the Aims of Scouting.

I have a chance to buy an Aluminum Canoe. We purchased a house on a lake near us, and the people a few camps down want to sell theirs. I havent had the chance to see it yet but will be checking it out next weekend. He told me that it was a 17 Grumman Aluminum Canoe, but he is not sure about the size. He bought it over 20 years ago but he doesnt think it has been used 10 times. It has been stored under cover. I am not sure if any paddles are included or any thing else he may have for this. He isnt sure what it was worth and asked me to make him an offer. I am not sure what its worth either. I dont want to steal it from him but I dont want to overpay either. Ive looked on Ebay and seen a few but they were a good deal newer than this one. Any ideas on what a good price for this would be?

Bbng I couldnt agree more with what you are saying. Beavah- You have made my point about adult leaders not understanding the relationships between the 8 methods of scouting. You say that your Troop is good about leadership and the patrol method. These two methods are closely related. You will not have good success in using one without the other. You also say that you are weak in Uniform and Ideals method. Arent these two methods closely related? Isnt one reason we wear the Uniform to show that we follow the Ideals. Isnt another reason we wear the uniform is to demonstrate leadership? If the older Scouts are all wearing a full uniform wont the younger ones follow? Isnt this the way Scouting demonstrates on how to lead by example and being a role model? Arent we reinforcing the leadership method by having our Scouts wear a uniform? If you dont understand the Personal Growth method, why arent you going out and trying to understand what it means? I havent seen you post any questions trying to find this out. I can also see that you have done what many other adult leaders have done and take the easy way out. If you have identified your Troops strength and weaknesses, why arent you working on the weaknesses? I know its much easier to concentrate on the strengths but a good leader understands that to grow you must spend the time working on areas where you are weak. In another topic, you stated that I said that the new unit we were in was the BEST troop I could find out of 9 choices. Just because this was the best choice from 9 poor to mediocre units doesnt make it a good unit, it still is a mediocre one. Hey, but what do I know. I dont have 30+ years in Scouting Ive only been a leader 3 years. And Im not living in the real world as I have been by other adults before. CNYScouter

I totaly agree with BW on this. Beavah- I feel that as an ASM its my responsibility is to see that the scouting program is delivered to the boys and I should say something if I am not seeing it done. So, the SM has decided not to use patrols anymore I should sit back an acept that. I don't think so. And yes, I was in a troop the the SM did this. At this meeting I was given the goals from the Troops last 2 yearly planning session. They have had the same issues for this long. They have the same issues again this year to work on. They have tried everything to improve these issues but follow to the program. I am an Eagle Scout. My son enjoys the the same thing I did as a youth in Scouting, the MB's, the outings and the freindships and these are the things that kept me in the program. As I grow older these are not the things that were important. The other things I learned leadership, giving service to other and being a role model are the important things I learned as a Scout. These are the things I don't see him learning in the program and they are the reason I had him join Scouts CNYScouter

I recently posted asking How do other methods support the Patrol Method?. I was very disappointed on that I only got one response thanks EagleInKY I see all sorts of responses about not following the program and the program being too Loosey-Goosey but when I ask a question on how to follow the program, I get very little in the way of answers. How can I spread the word on using the program when I dont fully understand it. I asked this question to learn how to better understand the program and help to train others in using the 8 methods to achieve the Aims of Scouting. Perhaps the program has come too complex to understand and nobody understands the program. Did EagleInKY say it all? Maybe the answer is obvious and I just dont get it? I find it hard to believe that all of the outspoken members here on the forum didnt have more to say on this subject.

It seems that I have heard this from too many leaders lately: Its not our program its the kids today just dont want to go camping after cancel a trip do to no interest in the Scouts attending even though the trip was picked, planned and run by the leaders with no input from the scouts. Its not our program its the kids today just dont want to be scouts when they quit after one year due to all the trips being done are geared towards older scouts and adults even though the trips are picked, planned and run by the leaders with no input from the scouts. Its not our program its the kids today just dont want to be leaders even though they dont use the patrol method and do everything for them. Its not our program its the kids today just dont stay in Scouting that long anymore even though their outdoor program offers nothing for them. Its not our program its the kids today just dont want to joining Scouting anymore when they cant get new kids to join even though they are not linked to a cub pack and have no recruiting effort I didnt hear these exact words in all cases but I did hear something very similar from most of the Troops I visited. This basically why I choose to switch troops and passed over most of the troops in my area. They only time I didnt here this was from Leaders in Troops that were following the program.

My real issue with these Loosey-Goosey Troops are ones where the leaders complain that the Scouts don't want to be leaders but don't use the patrol method and do everything for them. These leaders plan outings on what they want to do and then complain when they have to cancel a trip when no Scouts are interested in going. These trips they plan are all geared towards older scouts and yet they complain that kids don't stay in scouts anymore when they quit shortly after joining. These leaders complain that the Scouts won't wear the uniform when they refuse to wear them. These same leaders decide that only half the Scouting concepts are important and then can't understand why kids do not seem enthused about Scouting. These are real and this is what I experianced in one Troop.

I am still learning about the complexities of the Methods of Scouting. I understand that they are not stand-alone concepts and are all inter-related. If you only focus on certain methods, it decreases the effectiveness of the other parts of the program. From what I have read is correct if you see that your program is lacking in one method you use the other methods to bring it up. I am looking for ways the other methods support the Patrol Method to show the relationships between the methods. I can easily see where the patrol method and leadership method are linked, but I am having trouble seeing some of the other relationships. This is for a report that I am putting together for our Troop to improve in the patrol method. I am finding that this concept and the relationships between the methods is very hard for some leaders to understand. I think that if more time was spent in SM training or a course added to show the practical application of these methods would go a long way to see an overall improvement in units to follow the program

Juris - What BSA concepts do you find useless? What do you consider are the basic principles of Scouting? What do you differently from the BSA program that allowed the Troop to grow to 90 scouts? Please be specific and let us know. This forum is to exchange ideas. I am always interested in what works and why

The idea behind this post is not whether the troop should supply tents and equipment or the Scouts supply it themselves but rather teaching individualism over working in a group. Can anyone point me in what BSA publication shows how to teach self-reliance? How do you use all 8 methods of Scouting to teach self-reliance? CNYScouter

Juris- I am an ASM in the Troop. I have every right to be disgruntled and have every right to ask the "Volunteer Scoutmaster" to follow the program. I wanted my son to join the BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA not a version skewed by a couple of people who think they can do it better! I have been with two troops. They both have issues with youth leadership, low turnout on outings, scouts not wearing uniforms. They are trying everything but following the program. I have visited Troops that followed the BSA program. They dont have any where near the issues of the other Troops. I have seen the program in action and it works.

To clarify a few things- I was using the tents as an example. He thinks the Troop should not supply any equipment at all. Each Scout should have to supply their own tents and cooking gear. Doesn't belive in Patrol boxes either. Money is not an issue. The troop has over $5k in its account, not counting individual scout accounts. (a whole another issue). Last year we did do one camping trip like this. He would like to see the troop do many more. He is convinced that the reason this was so well attended was that each Scout had to supply their own food and sleeping arragements. I feel the reason was that it was our best attended event was that it was 100% planned and executed by the boys and its only purpose was to play a giant game of capture the flag and was the only camping trip that offered any type of competition like this. I think it didn't matter what the arrangments were the turnout would have been the same no matter what.