Adam S

I have two different versions of the work book, both versions purchased within the last couple years, they seem identical except for the award costing $8.00 in one version and $9.00 in the other (of note in the $9 version it is crossed out in every single copy and $7.50 written in)

I am wondering if there is a newer version as comparing the directions to the map seem wonky round about page 18 when you leave redoubt 3 and start along Mount Joy Ridge. I called the Park but no one was familiar enough with the route the book puts you on well enough to speak to it. They could only say that a new version was released "a couple years ago" seeing as both are identical except for the medal price I was wondering if there is a different book. I did not have a chance to call the encampment store yet, but was hoping to get an answer and maybe speak to someone who has done the trail recently.

YIS,

Adam

~~

I have a few issues with this whole thing

Changing the Tiger Image

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Awesome, it is about time that this program gets updated, The Den & Pack Meeting resource guide tacitly acknowledged that most Packs run it like a regular Den and do not typically have each Tiger/AP couple host a meeting. But if you say your going to change the image, then publish images of the proposed handbook covers with the natural looking Wolf and Bear and the plush-toy cuddly Tiger have you really updated the "image"?

Moving to Adventures

********************

The presentation stated:

1. Seven adventures per rank

2. Three meetings per adventure

3. The Religious Adventure would be done with family

This sounds like it might take a long time since most Den's meet twice a month

So 6 adventures * 3 meetings =18 meetings to make rank

18 meetings / 2 meetings a month = 9 months to rank

9 Months does not seem unreasonable, but...

Boys miss meetings

Dens cancel meetings because of school closures weather and may or may not be able to make it up

December is iffy with Holidays.

I am a bit skeptical of this timeline being workable, but I know we don't have all the facts and things could change. Still lets think about this some more!

If we assume the Scout year starts in September, and no meetings are missed, The Cub should have earned their rank by May. This is great, BUT, most Packs end their scouting year in June (or start when school starts and end when school ends, where I am it is September to June) So this gives my boys 1 month to do an elective adventure (which the documentation implies will also take 3 meetings.)

I assume/hope boys will be still be able to work on requirements/electives at home with family.

The current program is less then easy at first glance but it has some advantages over packaged Adventures. Certain requirements compliment each other and can be done out of order, will that remain the same in the new program or are Adventures going to be discrete packages to be presented as a whole?

Belt Loops

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I Know Belt Loops are going and I am ambivalent about this, while it did earn the boys bling it was poorly integrated into the advancement scheme. In fact you mostly have to work on Webelos Activity Badges to see any true involvement of Belt Loops and if you have already earned a given loop, you have to re-earn it as a Webelos, the inference is that even if you earned it as a Bear 3 months later the lessons you learned from a Belt Loop were so insignificant they want you to learn them again. The boys enjoyed them though...

And I echo 100% what EmberMike said "Glad to see the Sports & Academics Program and belt loops going away. A lot of those seem like just a rubber stamp. Kids on the soccer team get the soccer award, etc. Scouting doesn't need to be the place where they get another recognition for having already done something completely outside of the principles of scouting. I wish they'd make more changes like this and make scouting more back-to-basics outdoors stuff, scoutcraft, camping, etc."

This is possibly the most shocking thing thought to me, our Pack spends close to a thousand dollars on belt loops each year. This is a cash cow, what will be implemented in it's place? I saw one Pack from a nearby council that instead of giving belt loops gives a series of small circular patches that make concentric circles, they have their Cubs wear them on the back of the shirt. They said it is cheaper, and more important the parents were happier because belt loops were not getting constantly lost. It looked pretty neat to me, my sons thought it was "super cool" and the proigram is about the boys so this might be interesting.

WEBELOS/Arrow of Light

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1. 7 adventures for all ranks - What does this mean for the Activity Badge program? If one of the purposes of Webelos is to prepare scouts for Boy Scouts, this analog to the Merit Badge program was perfect. I admit the pins are frequently lost and make the uniform less "outdoor friendly" and the "colors" doubly so, but the program itself worked well I think.

2. The Webelos badge is no longer a pre-req for Arrow of Light. I am not sure I understand the reasoning for this, does National think I will suddenly recruit boys in the 5th grade because it will be easier to get their Arrow of Light? Are they trying to bump their statistices of AOL recipients by allowing scouts who did not earn their Webelos still have a shot at AOL? I have yet to come up with a reason that makes sense, have any of you?

3. if each rank takes 7 adventures and as I outlined above that means each rank takes 9 months for the majority of Cubs, does this mean Arrow Of Light Sccouts will be encouraged to bridg in May/June and not around the February/March time frame? I am currently a CUbmaster, an Asst Scoutmaster and a District Commssioner and in each of those roles I see big advantages of getting the boy in the troop a few months before summer camp. Will they assign less adventures towards earningg the AOL?

Instant Recognition/Arrow Heads

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I won't miss the beads, they get lost insanely easy, they cover the kids temporary patch position (and my Cubs LOVE their patches {yes, we know red vests... meh})

Arrowheads, alreeady expressed concern about what will happen with electives in my assessment of the Adventures above, While they Arrowheads are traditional, they get unruly fast. Interested to see what replaces it.

The scariest thing to me in all this is the imlementation of a Den Guide at each rank level. This stinks of being a JTE metric. I have a successful Pack, Why do I suddenly need five more registered leaders? And they are essentially administartive? If it is something where I can simply appoint one of my den leaders and let them double register like the COR/CC then fine, Each level always has their "Alpha Leader" that naturally evolves. I guess my concern stems from the simple fact that we have no information, not a job description, not why they are going to implement this, nothing...

Interesting stuff in here for the group: http://www.americanbible.org/uploads/content/State%20of%20the%20Bible%20Report%202013.pdf

 

Although down 4 points from the last study, I am surprised--and a bit skeptical--that 88% of households own a Bible.

 

I don't see why you would be surprised. I'm not Christian, but have a least half a dozen bibles at home, maybe a whole dozen. "Concerned" family members send them as gifts, people trying to convert me send them as gifts, and its just plain easier to politely accept them from the Giddeons (sp?) on the corner at their twice yearly hand out than to have to stop and engage in a theological discussion, especially when neither of us are going to change our positions.

How can it be the "second stage" when it was announced 5 months ago? The amount of tinfoil used for hats around here is sometimes baffling.

 

It seems like a simple logical move: Why would we register people who are not operating in an official capacity to begin with?

If they once knew, whatever, a bowline, and were signed off, but have since forgotten and now can't, so you want an extra identification system--paracord, beads, whatever--your line of reasoning doesn't stand: What keeps the same boy who earned First Class and forgot the bowline from earning your "ranger bead" for bowline, and then forgetting the bowline the same as any other First Class scout?

 

There. is. no. reason. whatsoever. to. implement. a. parallel. recognition. system.

 

If you have trouble with skill retention in your troop, you need to create opportunities for them to utilize the skills thereby keeping them fresh in the mind, not a parallel program. In point of fact, if the point is to use boys to teach other boys, the simple act of teaching will remedy the situation on its own.

Does your troop not go camping enough for these boys to apply these knots on a regular basis?

Since National really doesn't have very high uniform standards, I want to see if anyone has "improved" or incorporated things like "shoulder cords" (like the military wears in dress uniforms), different hats (Berets, Garrison caps, Boonie hats, etc.), and anything else that looks good and/or serves a purpose. I am wanting to start some new award systems to strike some interest with the scouts of my troop, like the "Knot Ninja" program that many others are starting (just do a quick google search to learn more).

 

So, If you guys have any ideas and/or pictures of uniform ideas, post them up!

 

Thanks in advance.

First you do realize that B-P explicitly stated several times scouting is not the Military, right?

Second, all for seeing someone develop a new award. But if your going to call out an organizations uniform standard as not high enough and then intend to implement "shoulder cords" in contradiction to those very standards I think your a hypocrite. I also need to observe that this program is about Knot tying, a skill so basic to scouting that not being able to tie them means one does not advance in rank and you think people should be given uniform decorations for that?

Third, If you like fancy uniforms, and the idea of the Knot Ninja program, take a look at the Sea Scout program. It is challenging, more structured than Boy Scouts and it has a variety of Uniforms.

Not sure where you would get the idea there is no standard. That is pretty much what the Uniform and Insignia Guide is all about I think. It is on line, so you do not have to have a hard copy.

I would agree there is poor enforcement, blame the Scoutmasters/Cubmasters. But there certainly IS quite a bit to enforce. Scoutnut mentioned it but did not link it. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide.aspx

Then Paracordman1220 said "I see scouts with long feathery hair down to their shoulder and wearing rainbow epaulets."

The hair if well groomed is acceptable, we are making confident and capable young men, not clones. I think you meant to say they were wearing rainbow shoulder loops, on their epaulets. Regardless, I knew what you mean and you are correct. Have a problem take it up with their Unit Leader, do so in a Scout-like manner.

Paracordman1220 went on to say "Now, I'd appreciate it if you would get this back on topic and stop derailing the OP, or don't post at all."

Friendly... Courteous... Kind...

Yes or no depending on the counselor. Some will accept previously done work' date=' some won't.[/quote']

 

It does not say after discussing with your counselor, or having the counselor assign BUT it does say after doing Requirements 1 to 5 which include discussing things with his counselor. The counselor is not obligated to accept work prior to there meeting, at elast not in this case, but I cannot see why they would not if it is verified by a school teacher.

 

And for the record, unless the requirements specifically require counselors approval or to be done after other work with a counselor, they are not allowed to ignore prior work.

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/04/30/ask-expert-mbs/

 

 

 

In 17 years of working with Cub Scouts, I have heard very few (if any) complaints about the uniform. The Tigers love it. The older boys tend to get whiney, but then they get whiney about everything as they get older! They still wear their uniforms.

 

The short sleeve Cub shirt isn't really any hotter than a regular shirt, and Cubs have the options of buying shorts, or the zip-off Switchback pants. The problem with Cubs is a lighter weight uniform will not last a week. Especially the pants. Little boys seem to be highly affected by gravity. They spend a good portion of their time on their knees, and/or skidding across floors/sidewalks/etc. You need something extremely sturdy.

 

As others have stated, a Pack t-shirt for active activities is also a viable way to go.

 

Faith - for the slipping neckers, tie a knot, or put a rubber band, under the slide,

Clears his throat..... so what is the lesson we are teaching by double dipping??? So is it about short cuts????? In my opinion' date=' it is not ok. I have several parents that disagree, of course in their opinion their 12 year old has earned his eagle.[/quote']

 

 

I have a couple thoughts on this.

 

 

 

Our local Board of Education encourages participation in, and recognition of Scouting service projects. Typically, the boys in our troop have more than enough service hours for rank AND their school requirements. They did the time with the scouts should I penalize them for whom they do the service with?

 

 

We recognize accomplishments in school as meeting advancement requirements, so why not service hours? Music Merit Badge requirement 3c specifically calls out participation in a school band, as just one example.

 

 

How about if the boy's Eagle Scout project is for the school?

 

 

A Scout is Helpful, so I cannot imagine any scenario where an Active Boy Scout would ever have insufficient hours for both rank and school requirements.

 

 

But then, A Scout is Thrifty, even with his time...

 

I have the same desire as several others, I want to see all the active threads in the last 24 hours or since my last visit not each individual post... This was how it worked on the "old" site.

As mentioned wear the square knot with the appropriate devices for regular wear. Up to 5 medals can be worn at one time for formal moments.

I should point out those knot devices are not real fun if your going to wear a pack of any kind, and they have the added benefit of being easy to forget at laundry time.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066_Section3.pdf

I am sorry I don't remember which thread or who posted it. But I do remember seeing it here in the last few months.

Someone had driectly asked National Venturing Staff about this situation and the gist of it was, that even if one was youth and the other adult, BSA placed married people sleeping in a tent together over generic YPT rules.

Does GSUSA have a rule or is it decided by their councils? I have heard of several male Troop leaders, but I also personally know someone who was denied being a leader for his daughters troop specificaly because he is a man.

Brewmeister, I don't think I stated, or even implied, that openly gay people could not be pedophiles. The point I was making was that it could be anyone.

Brewmeister, if they truly counted Hispanic population as white in that study, then your view makes sense to me. As someone else stated the point I was trying to reinforce is, it is whom you least expect.

As to whether the molesters are heterosexual or not, we only know what they identify as when they sign an application. It is not a matter of semantics when you consider that statistics have to be built on what they claim before they commit the crime so you can have an index of suspicion.

But as you said; whatever they say they are, they are most certainly evil.

Brewmeister said

"Adam opines: >>...you do know that white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children, right?

Wow, nice racist toss-in there...it just so happens that pedophilia rates pretty much match the population demographics...making most races equally "likely" to have these criminals among them.

I also must've missed the part in this whole discussion where males were having heterosexual intercourse with boys..."

First, I thought it would be an obvious inference, but the point I was making was that the exclusion of homosexuals as leaders because of a possible belief that they would be a greater risk for the scouts is incorrect. Let me make clear, I did not share an opinion, I stated fact, some data points and links are below. I do apologize if that did not directly contribute to the conversation like I thought it would.

Second, that was not a racist toss-in, it was a fact, cut and dry. I have backed it up with relevant citations, I would be interested in seeing the literature backing your claim that pedophilia rates matching the population demographics. While it seems logical from a certain perspective, it does not seem to be reflected in the data.

As to "males were having heterosexual intercourse with boys" Maybe you need to take YPT again It is commonly documented that most men who molest boys identify as heterosexual, and have relationships/sex with adult women not adult men.

Nearly all the offenders in sexual assaults reported to law enforcement were male (96%).

Sexual Assault of Young Children as Reported to Law Enforcement, 7/00, NCJ 182990, U.S. Department of Justice

While nearly 70% of those serving time for violent crimes against children were white, whites accounted for 40% of those imprisoned for violent crimes against adults.

- -BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.

Nearly two-thirds of convicted child molesters and/or offenders were or had been married. (This statistic was gathered before gay marriage was legal, and implies the molester was hetero sexual)

Kurt Freund and Robin J. Watson, The proportions of heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles among sex offenders against children: An exploratory study (1992)

Ryan C. W. Hall, M.D., and Richard C. W. Hall, M.D., P.A., A Profile of Pedophilia: Definition, Characteristics of Offenders (2009)

http://www.cpiu.us/statistics-2/

http://childprotection.lifetips.com/cat/63573/sex-offender-statistics/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Eagle732, a brother firefighter, now I know why I like you Nice job through hiking the AT

"Bluntly put, I would say that permitting certain adults to volunteer in a nonprofit organization (for youth) that does not need, nor require, nor solicit for their help has nothing to do with scouts or scouting."

I find it funny that you point out that the organization you, an adult volunteer for is for youth as it is some kind of issue for homosexual adults. Maybe you are insinuating they are pedophiles, you do know that white, hetero sexual males are the most likely to molest children, right?

As to not needing their help, I am in a Council woefully underserved in the Commissioner department, JTE requires a certain amount of Unit Visits, we REQUIRE volunteers. I am in a district that could easily double our volunteers and still have plenty of work for everyone, we NEED volunteers. My Troop and Pack are doing well with volunteers but the majority of units in our area have people serving double and triple duty, they actively SOLICIT for volunteers.

I don't know about you folks, but we have some scouts with gay parents, they are good people and doing a better job raising their kids then many straight parents (Have you seen snooki, Lindsay Lohan, Honey booboo???) They are not flambouyant, or in-your-face about their sexuality. They just want to live there life like any other person and raise there children in a loving home. I am not denying or downplaying the highly visible flambouyant/vulgar homosexual contingent. But there are equally offensive Hetro's involved in child porn, and swinging and other unsavory activities. Shouldn't we be judging people on their own individual merits? Not the actions of people they never met?

Eagle732, you said "I've got plenty of adult help in my unit and yes, we do pick and choose who becomes and adult leader. In fact I choose the ASMs myself based on who I think will be a positive role model for our Scouts, who can work well with boys, and who is willing to let the boys run their program. Note that positive role model is the first priority." I just want to clarify, your saying that regardless of gender, sexual preferemce and everything else that you place being a role model first? If I understood you correctly, your a stand up guy! I know a few units that absolutely diallow any female leadership, or they maintain a short roster of "buddies" as their SM/ASM staff.

Eagledad said "Not about sex? Just visit any local gay pride parade and you will see the main theme is clearly sex. It is not a parade for small children. And if it isnt about sex, then why did the gay community chose to do a Kiss-in to protest at Chick Fil As? The gay community does it to themselves, they publically make it all about sex. The reputation of their immoral behavior precedes gay scout leaders even if they dont bring directly up the subject."

I agree, when you walk in to a scouting event sexuality should fall away, I don't want to hear about a scouts girlfriend, or a scoutmasters wife or husband (we have female Scoutmasters) we are there with an agenda and sex is not on the list... straight or gay! You are correct some of the gay pride stuff is overtly sexual and I agree it is tasteless and vulgar but I really have to take a polar opposite view of the Chik-Fil-A protest, a kiss is a classic sign of love, you will always have the tasteless who go too far, but I am of the opinion that I would rather see tasteless sex then senseless hate. I am much for concerned about the violence my kids see on television or the movies then if they see someone having sex. Let's face it, if you hope for your child to have kids someday they are going to have sex.

Not one person has said anything about the boys being excluded. All this discussion is about what BP said 100 years ago with his words as dogma, but not his sentiment. Scouting is a movement, it changes over time. BP changed over time, from a decorated war veteran to someone who advocated for peace after the horrors of a World War.

If he were alive today, would he rather boys who could benefit from the program be excluded or would he want them as scouts?

What someone else believes or does not believe, should not scare you. What matters is that they are a good person, and I have met a fair number of good athiests and evil faithful. More important, the BSA *MAKES* good people, shouldn't we encourage every boy to join?

As a retired Paramedic I see the benefit of both languages on one form. The care giver and the person filling out the form may not share a language, but this lets them convey vital information.

As a Scouter in New Jersey, I see the benefit of making Scouting accessible to everyone.

As a grumpy old man, well, I will get over it

Regarding your question "I *think* at a show and sell, that I wouldn't want to have a $1 option as people who might have spent $10 for a tin of popcorn will opt for the $1 instead and you need to sell to 10 people to get $10 rather than one person to get $10. Any thoughts on this?"

Someone already mentioned the possible health dept. concerns, but it is my understanding that BSA expressely forbids this, although it may simply be my Council. I tend to believe National because they came out with a $10.00 8-pack option, which I am guessing in reply to the exact frustration you were voicing!

Not getting into the whole "should they be allowed" debate, just making an observation...

Only 4%... What was the percentage of the African-American population in the 1960's... It is not about percentages, it is about PEOPLE!

As to women in the OA, my understanding is males involved in venturing may continue OA participation (just like they may continue Boy Scout Advancement) in the Crew, but they may not be voted into the OA. It is a Boy Scout program, NOT a Venturing program. If I was looking for parity in anything, it would be Eagle Scout, not OA membership.

Now that I have opened that can of worms -- DEBATE!!!

Adam

Does anyone use the kits from this website? http://www.switchempatches.com/rank.html

They look interesting...

Thanks,

Adam

I staffed the NYLT course back in 1987 and 1988, and took Woodbadge in the last few years. The course content was shockingly familiar to me, and almost identical for the 4 younger Scouters who participated in the current vintage of NYLT.

I personally know someone who has received their fourth bead for being CD of NYLT, I am not sure how I feel about this. With the course being so similar I suppose it makes sense. Include the fact that we run NYLT far more often then we run Woodbadge. (Our council runs four Troops of NYLT per year and "half" a Troop of Woodbadge as we split the course with Northern NJ Council). They worked hard to deliver what is essentially the Woodbadge course to Scouts instead of Scouters. But that's the thing, BP intended Woodbadge to be a class to give the boys good leaders. Leaders who in turn would make them good leaders... I truly understand that wether CD for Woodbadge or NYLT your doing an almost identical job, and both are very demanding, but if the Scotus are not receiving beads for participating and staffing NYLT why do Adults get their 4th bead?

Patch Placement. This is a particularly silly subject in my opinion, the insignia guide is clear on NYLT Patch placement. We send our scouts to be good leaders. They should lead by example and model a correct uniform.

Sometimes I like to wack the hornets nest with a big old stick

The Adult Uniform Inspection form says:

"Temporary insignia, including one current world Scout jamboree

patch, centered on pocket. Only one temporary insignia

may be worn at a time, and they are not required for correct

uniforming. Cub Scout leaders and female leaders wearing

the official uniform shirt or blouse may wear one temporary

insignia centered above the Boy Scouts of America strip."

So a Female Venture leader who has completed NYLT as a youth, could actually wear the NYLT patch in the "Jamboree" position. For that matter, any Cub Leader, Male or Female, could also display the NYLT patch in that position...

Now to really throw gas on the fire.

"Only one temporary insignia may be worn at a time"

That means you can wear your Jambo patch, but no other temporary insignia.

IMHO I think it is silly to disallow Jamboree participants from displaying a second temporary patch on their pocket. I also think it is silly we still have females and Cub Leaders putting non-jambo temporary patches above the pocket. BUt those be the rules, and like some speed limits, I obey the rules even if they seem antiquated.

Adam S