Adam S

As District Training Chairman I am torn about this.

1. Cub Leaders for the most part are "tourists", their sons may end up in Boy Scouts but typically they do not hold a position outside of the committee if at all. I do not mean this in a bad way at all, it just seems to be how things happen. They seem to know this and tend to not want to invest time heavily in the training ESPECIALLY if they have only one son.

2. The Cub's parents are younger they are very in tune with technology, and online learning.

3. The Cub AND his parents are busier then we were as kids, they have time constraints and Scouting competes against sports, after school programs, church activities and stuff in general

So if Online Training means I get someone trained who would not otherwise have taken any training then I am all for it!

BUT I do see GREAT value in an instructor led program, someone with experience they can benefit from, someone who knows the foibles and oddities of the local district and council, someone who walked in the shoes they are about to fill, but mostly someone who cares that the boys have a great Scouting Experience and will do everything they can to make sure the boys are smiling! PLUS they get a chance to network with men & women from other units, who might have a better way of doing something.

So what will I do as District Training Chairman? I will continue to encourage training, instructor led whenever possible, but training of any type is better then none. But Online might be a good opporunity I can leverage, the people who come to roundtable are the people who get trained, the ones that pass the training usually skip Roundtable, if they even know it exists! The online training will hopefully mention all the resources available to them, if they leverage any of it, it's more chance for US to educate THEM, I think the online specifics will have a minimal negative impact but have the potantial to drive more LIVE training!

The boys are gonna have more fun then ever!

Is there any reason they cannot discuss the three boys, and then table their decision until they next day and make it on a conference call?

Adam

Wouldn't BSA's policy against secrecy cover this. Assuming it is not a health or personal issue which requires privacy wouldn't ANY parent with scouts in that unit have a right to attend?

You put your kids in Scouting to become "good" people, what kind oflesson do they learn when the "grown ups" manipulate the rules...

You gave them a chance to do things the honest way, escalate to the Charter Rep, if nothing comes of it look for another unit.

Picked up my Den & Pack Meeting Resource Guide and Leader Book, the first thing I noticed is the book is thinner, not fewer pages, thinner pages. (I read allot, I notice paper...) Overall they have a more "polished" feel, the books feel "designed" as much as written and the content is mostly recycled (Why throw out what works!) But this does not seem to be a case of style over substance, more that BSA publishing is maturing. The new content is more of a refinement in my opinion then revolutionary.

My verdict, good job!

There IS Specific training for Committee Chairman, call your Council or District training chair to find out when they offer it.

Adam

Kindergarten is a full day in our school district also.

I am wondering if the Lion program is in response to Girl Scouts having a program (Daisy) at this grade level.

Eagle

I understand that the women outside of Cub Scouting would want to have the same options. But then I realized I might be jumping the gun and assuming WHY they would want this option, being a male I am probably missing something.

So why would they want the patch in a different location?

1. Undue attention from boys

If the reason to wear the patch in a higher position is to divert attention from an area of a womans anatomy, then what does that say about how we are delivering the program. All the branches of BSA have oaths and laws which indicate they will be good and moral people, clearly the person making the women uncomfortable is not living up to that.I absolutely agree the female members should be comfortable but I think it's the person who is making them uncomfortable that should be "corrected" If there is a problem would it not be better to address it with whomever is making her feel uncomfortable, might head of problems for that individual down the road and make them a better person. I also suspect that while a patch might center the attention it would still be an issue with these type of people even without a patch. Regardless, If they don't learn from it, then they probably should be removed.

2. Comfort/appearance

Patches are not very flexible (compared to cloth) so placing them over a curvy anatomy makes the uniform hang oddly and very probably is uncomfortable. If a t-shirt can draw blood during a marathon I can see a patch as a problem.

3. waist band

I know that women have higher waists, maybe they would be high enough the patch looked odd or was in some cases under the waist band?

These seem like valid reasons to move a patch to me, I would write a letter to National. They clearly had a reason to institue this policy and if it was for any of the issues I could think of then it should be valid for ALL women in the BSA not just those in Cub Scouts. I would add, assuming my first reason was why they went this way, they probably should consider rolling out some sort of guidleines on how to handle that if it does become a problem, I am sure allot of leaders would appreciate the knowledge.

Adam

ScoutNut, I quoted the book simply to do that... That said it is also BSA policy to not add or REMOVE requirements.

It would be adding a requirement if they genuinely tried to complete an acheievement, but could not do so successfully and you did not give them credit.

it would be removing a requirement to simply give the award...

It seems a pretty easy line to draw to me "Do your best" That's the whole point of Cub Scouts right?

I do absolutely agree that if you did not do the work you do not get the achievement.

I have spent the last couple decades as a Paramedic and firefighter and knots are an invaluable tool. Dozens of them, all the time!

My favorite though, is the Boline. I have used it to bring people out of fires, to lift tools several stories and most importantly to get myself safely out of buildings that are becoming a hazard (relatively speaking of course) The knot is strong, reliable and most important you can learn to tie it on your belly, in several hundred degrees, zero visibilty and know it will still hold you! How can you hate a knot like that?

If you ever want a great resource for teaching knots to the boys hit up your local fire departmet! As both a retired Chief and a Scouter this is a great event. The Firefighters get to meet youth who are interested in Public Service, and the youth get a meeting or event different then the rest, what is more fun then being at the firehouse? They learn real life applications of the knots, it's no longer just "When will I use geometry and/or knots?" They see value in what they can do with knots and they remember them!

Page 18 of the Tiger Cub Handbook says

"Simply participating in the activities and doing his best constitues completion."

That is in BOLD in the book.

So assuming they showed up and at least made an effort, they have earned their Tiger. I would make the very important observaion on wether or not they have at the least perticipated as it is NOT an attendance award.

We all know that changing the requirements in anyway is not allowed so it seems that they all get the badge to me

Adam

"Cub Scout leaders and female leaders wearing the official uniform shirt or blouse may wear one temporary insignia centered above the Boy Scouts of America strip."

I suspect this is because you don't have CS leaders going to Jamboree's typically.

The blouse rule is obviously because only women may wear the blouse, I suspect the Regular uniform shirt got the approval for both genders as it would be more uniform for a given unit to do one or the other assuming women would prefer to have the temp patch in the higher location.

Uniforms are NOT required

BUT

They are a METHOD of scouting

That says to me if the boy has a Uniform he should wear it. Why do something if your not proud of it?

Boy Scout's

I am hard pressed to beleive anyone in scouting more then a couple years cannot afford pants OR that there is not a resource available to them. I know in our Council, most units have spare gear as well as a Council program for under privelaged scouts. I am really surprised by your examples of OA showing up in street clothes to an official function. They are the Honor Society of the BSA, are they not? The best of the best thing....

Cub's

I can understand the Cub Scout argument of the boys growing so fast that pants might not be an option ad in the high turnover rat, as well as the amazing rate little boys can tear through the knees (literaly and figuratively!)

p.s. I am absolutely willing to put my money where my mouth is for local underprivelaged scouts. Scouting made such an impact in my life and 20 years later my sons are involved that I cannot stomach anyone not able to participate because of money. I am sure people interested enough in scouting that they are on this forum probably hold the same opinion.

I have received that several times in the past, over this weekend and again this morning...

Having spent more then half my life working Fire and EMS I find it very hard to imagine why I would even put the idea of doing anything without the proper safety equipment on the table... (btw proper means a Skiing helmet, not a bike helmet or a motorcycle helmet or a construction helmet!) Several people have already pointed out WHY you need the helmet, so I won't.

Simply put, looking to sidestep safety is about the worst thing a leader can do EVER.

I imagie your winterfest is at a ski resort of some type, don't they rent helmets that are insulated or allow for proper clothing to be worn under them? If not maybe you should recomend your Council or district uses a different slope next year.

Beautiful float but It's the BOY SCOUT 100th, not the Venture 100th, I would have liked to see the Venturers included but the focus of that float should have been the BOY SCOUTS...

The Cubs with over 75 years got less "face time" then the Venturers, and as mentioned, the Sea Scouts who have been around considerably longer then 10 years were ignored.

Glad to see it will survive as a Council property, bummed about the summer camp closing though.

Does this leave anyone else wondering if the the council is really having finance issues. Is this simply a holding pattern until they find a way to deal with all the nostalgic scouts and volunteers

Best of luck in keeping your camp open guys!

You should make sure your unit is registered on http://www.beascout.org/ your District Exec should be able to help you do this.

I think denoting rank on a t-shirt is pointless, as pointed out rank is relatively temporary and reflecting it in shirt color or silk screen is silly. A tee shirt is for camping or work events, maybe a something for Patrol Leaders, but rank is pushing it

I also think that National has better things to do then pushing licensed vendors who make quality Scouting tee's out of business, do they really need more money?

Performance shirt - Not sure if I am a fan. The boys are already at an age where they are hyper-aware of their body image, to some the form-fit matters little, to other boys it could be a big problem! Roll in the Adult Leaders and this could get ugly, both figuratively and literally!

If National is really looking to take over a licensed service I would go for Unit Management, get rid of the software, give me a web interface direct to a databsse that National and my council share and whoa nelly I would be a happy man! Link it to my scout shop so they can set aside awards as they are earned so next time we come in we can just pick them up (or let us choose to have them shipped from Scoutstuff...) and well I dunno how more happy I could be

Let me preface this by saying this is my opinion, guessing and conjecture Maybe I say something intelligent, but, if not, well... sorry

So there is a bit more to this then simply "CNJ council is closing a camp" You need to talk about other camps in the area, the reality that their are fewer scouts, and that we are operating in a cruddy economy. So less scouts to begin with, who have less money to spend... It is easy for us to blame the paid scouters but lets be real; you cant pay for a camp people dont't attend and it just becomes a downward spiral. And let's be honest they all want to stay employed they are working hard to deliver good program, sometimes you get a bad one but, we cannot let that cloud our opinion of them (nor would we want the public to think every volunteer is a kid toucher just because one really was!)

North Jersey is CHOCK full of Scout camps!

1. This council owns two camps Yards Creek & KMSR, they are within 20 miles of each other. Both camps are at the farthest north point in their council. Convenient to a small portion of their council, the rest of the council is closer to several camps in other councils.

2. both these camps are within 20 or 30 miles of the two summer camps owned and operated by the Patriot's Path council(PPC from now on) (Mount Allamuchy S.R. and Camp Winnebago) Northern NJ council(NNJC) owns No-Be-Bo-Sco which is right down the street from Yards Creek... These 3 camps are VERY busy!

3. North NJ is about 75 miles across. In Northern NJ you have the CNJ's camps (kmsr, ycsr) PPC's camps (MASR & Winnebago) and NNJ's camps (no-be..., Alpine, Camp Lewis (which is contiguous with PPC's Winnebago, and Camp Yaw-Paw (Which is contiguous with the old Scout camp Glen Gray more on this below!) AND Greater NY Council (GNYC) runs Alpine also (Both NNJ and GNYC havea Camp Alpine, they are contiguous but distinctly seperate camps) PPC also owns a small property in the Hopatcong area which is a hike in camp only (Casperson). So assuming your at the opposite side of the state you could be in any one of those camps in under 90 minutes! There are some states where NJ is smaller then their counties and they have to drive for HOURS to get to camp!

So the weird thing about CNJ is it is kind of the "center" of the state but then they shoot up the west side of the state, making an "L" around PPC. So you have Units in the "central" NJ area who can hit central, south and north jersey camps with ease as well as PA camps. You have the folks on the west side up north that do quite a bit with the PPC council anyway (they participate heavily in our events like University of scouting, the centenial council jambo...) so aside from traveling south they gravitate to the PPC camps because they deal with us or no-be-bo-sco because it really is a great camp and it is in the same town as one of theirs... I have no clue if anyone does go to NY, but they are within 15-20 minutes of NY so they probably have a couple close options there as well.

CNJ operates Yard Creek as a group camp site, it services the Appalachian trail, and in their letter they clearly stated " We did not think the option of moving the summer camp to Yards Creek was a viable option, because it would also require an outlay of capital money to bring the camp up to minimal standards, and there was no guarantee that attendance would improve, thereby continuing the deficit operation. We actually considered recommending the sale of both properties, but decided that it was important to preserve one property for district events, weekend camping, training, etc. In all, we considered six different options for the camps, and found this to be in our best interest as a council"

So this effectively means they are out of the summer camp business, which would be sad if they did not have so many options available to them (Which is probably WHY their camp is closing) While I do think of BSA as "protectors of the outdoors" and holders of a "Sacred Trust", I also believe we are not the only ones with such a trust, nor that we should not encourage others to develop such a duty in themsleves!

Living in Parsippany, NJ I am within 45 minutes of a very large amount of scout properties (and honestly I am propbably unaware of a good number of camps! Sorry for the ones I omitted) As the number of scouts goes down, Councils merge, they keep going down, and the large amount of real estate they hold transforms from an assett to a liability. Which brings us to TWO examples of a Council divesting themselves of a property in a GREAT way.

First is PPC (by way of one of their formative merger councils, Morris-Sussex Area Council) I am proud to be MSAC alumni because we were home to Schiff, Yep, THAT Schiff! Green Bar Bills NATIONAL Training camp! That went through some wrangling but now it is a Public Park system, with trails, the old houses are preserved and it is really a beautiful piece of land! It would look better with some tents, but thats just me

The real success storey in my opinion is NNJ and Camp Glen Gray! They turned the property over to the County Park system. Their honor camper association, The Old Guard, are stewards of the camp on behalf of the county and it really has remained a great property that is open to allot more use. The Scouts still can use it without having to keep the maintenance of it on their budget. I had the privelage of camping there this fall and while I was skeptical of how it would be in public hands, they absolutely have maintained the properties (and shown respect for many of the traditional scouting things like unit signs in the dining hall!) of that camp!

If I remember my geography, KMSR is bordered by Stokes State Forest so maybe they can work something out and turn the land over to the State. There are many YMCA, and other "faith" camps in that area of the state so maybe another youth organization would be interested also. I am hoping they go that way istead of selling to developers!

I hope this results in CNJ returning to "fighting weight"!

It amazes me this still happens, moreso when someone is a BSA leader and should have been Youth Protection trained...

http://www.bnd.com/372/story/1041246.html

Added after original post:

It sounds like they had no idea who she was? How can parents not know the unit leadership? I am wondering if this was the case or just poor reporting.

(This message has been edited by adam s)

TY for the Welcome Sherminator

You guys blew my mind!! First Aid MB is no longer required for First Class?

How can you responsibly do any of the outdoor skills without having First Aid skills? Especially in todays environment, I was a walking scab until I was 11 or 12 so I knew basic things like cleaning and bandaging a wound. The kids now might as well live in bubble wrap and on the rare occassion they get hurt some of them are more worried about scars then surviving.

Maybe it's me, First Aid MB was one of the seeds that led me to becoming a Paramedic, but those are critical skills EVERY scout should know!

Just my 2 cents, While somethings may be used infrquently or done different today, there is no harm in learning an alternate method, at the least they learn a second way to do soemthing and if they are sharp they start realizing a few things

1. while some tasks get simplified, it is good to know a workaround in case technology breaks. Be Prepared!

2. Sometimes there are more then a few ways to do something, they might realize that sometimes there are a couple ways to think about something and still be "right" A great lesson in respecting others belief's

As to knots in specific, as a Firefighter I used knots EVERY DAY, I had to tie them in hostile environments, with zero visibility wearing fire gloves. I had the pleasure to serve as Chief and while everyone reached a level of proficiency, with men who were scouts you could tell it was inate, their hands made the knot, not their head!