Adam S

I have to agree with Baden P, I am not being pessimistic, I am being realistic.

College's have Alumni associaitions specifically for economic development... Both for the college and for Alumni to help each other. The recent survey many of us got was centered around an Alumni association and how open we were to solicitations and of what fashion... So, clearly they have if not a plan, an inclination to go in this direction.

Because otherwise you would be a registered Scouter active with a unit. right?

I would like to see them develop the brotherhood side of it first/more but I realistically understand the time and effort needs to pay for itself...

They are both "temporary" patches

You can either

a) put both on the red vest

or

b) sew ONE on the right shirt pocket

or

c) sew a loop of thread at the top of either and let him wear whichever one he wants from his right pocket button. They do sell plastic sleeves to slip the patch into that has a button hole also

My preference is option C as I like to keep my patches

@Moosetracker

You are correct National does not require Outdoor Webelos Leader Skills for normal Pack Operations.

It is a requirement of the Webelos Den Leader Training Award.

It is a requirement for the Pack Journey to Excellance Gold Level.

As to a counci requiring it, I know our council required Youth Protection in person for the first time until last year because NJ has very strict Child Abuse laws and they felt it was best conveyed in person. That stopped when National asked them to do so, this ocurred right when national updated all the online training last year. So it seems they can hold units to a higher stanadard, until National further clarifies their position.

Baden P I absolutely agree with you opinion on the Mazzuca and the fact that BSA seems to be a fund raising organization now. I also absolutely agree camping is important (in fact it is my single fondest memory from when I was a scout), I was only pointing out that there is room for the science stuff.

Adam

BadenP is spot on. From http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx

(not quoting the whole page)

The purpose of the Guide to Safe Scouting is to prepare members of the Boy Scouts of America to conduct Scouting activities in a safe and prudent manner. The policies and guidelines have been established because of the real need to protect members from known hazards that have been identified through 100 years of experience. Limitations on certain activities should not be viewed as stumbling blocks; rather, policies and guidelines are best described as stepping-stones toward safe and enjoyable adventures.

All participants in official Scouting activities should become familiar with the Guide to Safe Scouting and be aware of state or local government regulations that supersede Boy Scouts of America policies and guidelines. The Guide to Safe Scouting provides an overview of Scouting policies and procedures rather than comprehensive, standalone documentation."

Being a little pessimistic I tend to think of this as "The guide to liability shifting" were BSA can point and say "We told you so" if something bad happens and then hope they have reduced liability. Continuing my pessimism I also think the reason you don't see people getting in trouble for things that "violate" the G2SS would simply result in decreased revenue through enrollment.

In reply to BadenP

"Adam

You just plain missed the point, the BSA mission is not to create scientists, that is for our school systems. It is fine to have scouts interested in science and we have MB's, etc. to address those needs. The BSA has its own special focus and the more we veer away from that focus the weaker the program becomes replacing scoutcraft skills with robotics or computers as a primary focus the organization ceases to be the boy scouts."

Nerd/Geek types really can use the boy scout program to learn that the world does not revolve around a computer or a lab and to help them grow into well rounded leaders. As far as the astronauts are concerned, a few years back I got to meet and talk with Buzz Aldrin on his book signing tour for about half an hour, and I can tell you he is anything but a nerd as are most of our astronauts who risk their lives everytime they take off into space. So that argument of yours is also invalid."

I don't think I did. The BSA's stated purpose at its incorporation in 1910 was "to teach [boys] patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values." I see not a word about woodcraft, a boy can be self reliant with a job in a lab or at a computer just as much (actually moreso nowadays) then as a lumberjack... Make no mistake I believe a strong outdoor program is needed as much today as it was at the beginning. But the reality is many troops lose boys (or never get them) because they compete for the boys attention.

From the handbook

. . . mentally awake, . . .

Develop your mind both in the classroom and outside of school. Be curious about everything around you, and work hard to make the most of your abilities. With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.

BY updating the program it does not cease to be the Boy Scouts, it just stops being the same as it was when you and I were boys. I think they lose something as a result but, what good is a great program with no scouts?

I am not sure you understood what I said. I absolutely agreed they need the scouting program however you seem to think I use nerd in the derogatory. I most certainly did not most people who identify as nerds or geeks nowadays are very well adjusted and social, they tend to be academically achieving and into gadgets and tech...

The simple point I was making is this, to boast about so many Astronauts being eagle scouts and then to completely reject any science program in scouting is hypocrisy. National does not do it so why should we? The world is far more technical then it was when Buzz was going into space. The computer in your cell phone is thousands of times more powerful then the computer in the Apollo rockets, the kids today LIVE in a technical world, they learn about advanced science and technology when you and I were learning cursive (by the way they no loonger learn cursive). Being a nerd is simply being a kid in todays world and the Boy Scouts need to reflect reality if we want to interest them.

If it is so bad to have "nerds" in your troop then why does BSA brag about Armstrong and almost 50 astronauts making Eagle? Besides, who needs scouting more then the kids who don't want to go outside?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Eagle_Scouts_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)

The boys who do not want to go camping are the slackers, We won't get them for anything and that is fine (even though they need it most) BUT I would love to get some highly motivated scouts who are interested in science into my troop! While many of them may enjoy the outsdoors the reality is if they are focused on their goal then BSA is probably not going to interest them despite this ribbon.

I think what it is good for is the bosy already in scouting to build America up again and take back our leadership in all the sciences!

I think this is a troll...

It is horrific if it is genuine, but too many things do not make sense.

Something I posted started a spin off, I am flattered LOL

Sasha, I can and do sew all my own uniforms, and have since I was a scout many years ago. BUT I have big hands so fitting my mitts in the little pocket results in a few drops off blood. It is doable but a hassle I have seriously considered using badge magic but cannot bring myself to do it.

UCEagle72 - I get what your saying, I know it is out there, but much like my grandparents hated people wearing jeans if they were not actively working (They were always "dressed up") I just cannot dig the neckerchief over plain clothes, I admit I am a fossil.

I like their clean patches better then the 2010 rank patches national put out last year. I thought the 1910/2010 thing was ridiculous. Then I saw the commissioner patches and really knew they went overboard...

I have always been a fan of the friendship knot, but have carved to many of my own woggles to abandon them.

That is in Central New Jersey Council http://www.cnjcscouting.org/

https://beascout.scouting.org/BeAScoutMap.aspx

No troop 198

but there is a 199 which means they might be in the area

and a 1980 so maybe there was another 198 durign a merge and they opted for 1980...

Of course it could just mean 198 exists but is not listed...

Sorry to hear, the professional staff in my council has always been competent and personable in their dealings with us so it is upsetting to hear that, of course the BSA does not have the same people working everywhere so it is not just possible, but probable. Of course the old boys networks are illegal and have been diminishing in other industries but maybe this is persisting in BSA because of exactly what you said

"Many people have suggested that she sue the council and scouting but she doesn't want to do that as she loves scouting."

If she loves scouting force them to follow the ideals found in the scout law. It may be a hard thing to do but this will only improve scouting for everyone.

I just looked at the Canadian Uniforms. For the older levels, I have to say I do NOT like them, it looks like casual day at the offices of IBM

They opted for a left arm pocket which I am not a fan of (granted it does not look like they had the stupidity to put patches on it which is my main source of dislike, the Canadian flag is there and I am presuming pre-sewn, good design!)

Their patches are vastly different then ours, simple and clean and smaller. I have to say I am conflicted, I think they look good but the patch trader in me squirms a little at it. Overall a nice way to go though

The Cub Scout shirts being a pullover is an awesome idea! And the bucket hat for the Beaver level is something they should have available to all of their scouts. Of course I would LOVE to see those here too!

Is it just me? I just think neckerchiefs look dorky with a t-shirt, sweat shirt or polo shirt...

I am a firm believer that when you are correctly dressed a. the world treats you better and b. you treat yourself better.

I agree with the observation that no other child activity makes the uniform optional

I agree that the BSA uniform IS expensive especially in light of the rapid growth of some children (I have 3 sons, I REALLY understand this)

I know the woes of buying clothes and finding knee holes but I would challenge ANY uniform cop to have a problem with well patched pants using as close a color cloth as possible. Remember, as scout IS thrifty!

I most definitely beleive there are events when a scout uniform is NOT the right clothing for the event.

But, everybody had a full uniform when I was a scout, cost was not an issue the pack and troop both had fundraisers to make sure all the boys went on the trips and had what they needed to be a scout. Books, uniforms, whatever... We all worked together! Unifroms were passed from scout to scout and we all looked sharp. We were PROUD of being ascouts and more importantly we took pride in our apperarance in or out of uniform...

Fast forward a few too many years to the Jamboree last July, I took my eldest son, a Bear Cub, down for a day trip (long day trip from Jersey;) and as we were walking he learned the value of a full uniform. Literally every 10 minutes a Scout or a leader was giving him a nice comment or a random patch because he was in full uniform. I now have a boy who has already planned out how to make first class in time to go to the next Jamboree. The patches were nothing special, a couple CSP's a klondike patch maybe a camporee patch. But I know he will have them the rest of his life, all because the kindness of those scouts who positively reinforced the importance of a full uniform.

I do worry that the uniform is a cash grab by BSA, then I realize they do have to subsidize the staff and legal expenses and such. (Like everyone I believe there are efficiencies to be had on Nationals part but that is a different matter) I most definitely agree the quality of pants at REI and other outfitters are a better.

As to the uniform, I think it is more suited, by far, to the outdoors then the previous generation was. The pants as observed are an epic win over the previous version and the suplex is a nice option. The shirt? I despise the technology pocket for many reasons (it seemingly undermines many units no electronics rule, sewing patches on it is less then fun, it does not fit my phone properly...) but it works. There is room for improvement but it is a better outdoor uniform then the one I wore outdoors as a boy. When worn with a CSP, unit numerals, POR and rank it does not seem at all to me, to be ridiculous outdoor clothes.

The bottom line is the units that have good uniformed leaders and scouts in our council seem to excel. And consistently I find they all have a uniform exchange of some sort so the cost is less of an issue. I also discovered many of these units are doing the same thing my unit does. We tell EVERYONE when we find a great deal.

For Example:

Ladies Centenial shirts for FIVE DOLLARS

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01CLO&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=CO_APPAREL&C3=&C4=&LV=2&item=633WOMEN&prodid=633WOMEN^8^01CLO&

Ladies yellow Cub Leader Blouses FIVE DOLLARS

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01CLO&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=CO_APPAREL&C3=&C4=&LV=2&item=962WSS&prodid=962WSS^8^01CLO&

And the most hard to encourage uniform item

Cub Scout pants FIVE DOLLARS

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01CLO&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=CO_APPAREL&C3=&C4=&LV=2&item=829CST&prodid=829CST^8^01CLO&

Now, tell me how jeans are cheaper then $5.00 cub scout pants?

I picked up a few pairs of the centenial switchback pants for $15.00 last year. The deals are there if you care enough to look.

ALL that said (sorry for being long winded) I just do not think cost is a valid arguement about not being uniformed... And of course their are absolutely instances where your exchange is out of a scouts size, it happens, you deal with it until you can find something.

I know in our Pack it is sometimes a problem because teh schools where we hold our meetings have zero tolerance for weapons, pocket knives included. So that might be one source of your problem, maybe a change of meeting locations is enough?

The Boy Scout shoulder belt loops ARE changing, to what exactly I do not know. But last weekend we had our Council training for district volunteers, heavy focus on the Journey to Excellence and it was revealed that the scouts like the Jamboree epaulets so much they would be giving the different levels of J2E special epaulets so maybe green with bronze, silver or gold pips on them... dunno

IOLS & OWL make a great idea for combination, theo nly people who take owls now seem to be those working on the Webelos Den Leader training knot. These are also typically the people who move up to scouting with their sons so saving them from redundant taining is a good idea.

But Baloo, this makes no sense. Many of the people who take Baloo have no outdoor experience, this class gives them basic ideas about gear and organizaing a trip... Far below the expectation of IOLS.

The wife got gold beads? Does this not seem to anyone else like when they give moms a gold pin when a scout gets rank?

Adam

I would expect someone representing the HONOR SOCIETY OF SCOUTING would not need to be told about being in uniform especially on official business.

So while the SM might have been more tactful I do not think I disagree with him. And heck offering them pants from his units uniform exchange is pretty nice...

As training Chairman for the Fishawack District of the Patriot's Path Council in New Jersey, we only charge for actual costs. This is done to encourage attendance. We have occassionally reviewed this as there is always the worry people will sign up and not show if there is no repercussions, or experience has been that you will have "no shows" wether or not they pay and there is always at least one unregistered walk in to take there place...

Training should promote strong leadership to deliver the program to the boys, let fundraising committee's worry about making money.

Training! All of it is online now - there is no reason for a new leader not to be "Trained"

Resources - so many great books at the scout shop. The Meeting Resource guide, the how to book, websites like this and US Scout service Projects Baloo's Bugle

Support - The Cubmaster should be meeting regularly with ALL the Den Leaders and stopping by for a den meeting or two for the new leaders

But the biggest thing to remember about scouting, we are here to make MEN, the achievements all culminate in a young man who is a part of his community and can lead people in making it a better place. Our job is to make it FUN, that's it.

I think you have a great idea, and I hope you share the fruits of your labor

A step backwards... An electronic form is easier to fill out and saves trees... I will grant you the BSA Tour permit was not easy for anything but causing rage but it was a start in the right direction.

And tio muddy the waters, Camp Sommers which is part of the Mount Allamuchy Scout Reservation of Patriots' Path Council is one of the National pilots for an ATV program, scouts can legally ride ATV's as part of this camps program.

I have sooo many thoughts about what you said, Cubby's Cubmaster

1. Is the world only comprised of leaders? By my thinking thats's the mentality that offshored everything BUT mangement...

2. "However, how useful really is it to know 10 knots or so" I am a firefighter I have saved lives with many things I learned in scouting, ESPECIALLY knots, I use them EVERY SINGLE DAY

Those points made, we are helping these boys become citizens who respect the world they live in and can cook for themselves without a microwave. I think that is pretty spectacular.

"It won't be long before more boys will be staying at home and girls out working." If we outsource everything, when do they finally realize they don't need American management? The reality is I know lots of people and in the last several years the ones back to work the fastest are the ones who were Scouts. Coincidence, maybe, I doubt it, but maybe... A fair number of them are in totally new careers because there priorities were focused on taking care of their family and they learned a variety of skills as scouts, including the most important one, "try everything, learn as much as you can"

Leadership is one thing scouting imparts but should it really be the only thing? If so, why bother with scouting? Enroll your kids in PMP certification classes and get them into Wharton Business school... As for me I will let my kids be kids, I will keep them in BOY Scouts as long as they want to be and hope they enjoy is as much as I did, I am pretty confident they will come out as contributing members of their community

The Getzen Field Trumpet is a nice horn, http://www.getzen.com/trumpet/specialty/field/

As to playing it, Jari Villaneuva is THE MAN when it comes to Bugling lots of great resources from this site.

http://tapsbugler.com/