SiouxRanger

And, whether this is the proper thread, or not, moderators can determine and move, the number of registered and active posters on this forum, is miniscule compared to the number of claimants, and even micro miniscule compared to the number of registered adult scouters. My primary focuses are 1. What can I learn to be reasonably informed; 2. What can I do to educate (trying to give others the benefit of what I have seen and learned), and, 3. What do I do next to make change (NOW-why wait)? So, there are very few active registered members on this forum, and about 150 guests on this forum, and those numbers pale before the number of registered adult volunteers in Scouting who are largely NOT on this forum. (Just guessing, the forum's registered members and viewing guests are less than one thousandth of a percent of registered adult scouters.) And so the message of all this trauma and horror is not getting out to virtually all of the registered adult leaders. And if they don't learn here, given the few citations to public media about all of this, they know nothing.

"Acculturation" is another word too big in my estimation. "Assimiliation" is too strong-this denote permanent change. (Sexual predation is a single event, or a series of events which the predator does not see as permanent and the target as "subjected to." Nevertheless, "grooming" is far too benign to describe the nature of a sexual predator's activity directed at a target. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I (perhaps) remember Scout handbooks speaking of scouts engaging in "proper hygiene and grooming." Or those words, thereabouts. But in a positive posture.. WORDS COUNT, and I think it important to adopt terms that adequately describe the aspects of the predator-victim situation (crime scene).

I have not "settled" on a suggestion, but grooming can be done by both adult and apparently older youth, it is targeted, and with evil outcome for the target. And so perhaps a single word won't embody all the aspects of the activity.. "Predatory grooming" is my near term recommendation, but I reserve the right to change my my mind and modify this. "Acclimatization" and "habituation" are words from the world of psychology which tend to fit the grooming activity, but too wordy, opaque, and foreign to most folks. A word or phrase is needed that embodies the notions of predatory, targeted victim, relentlessness of pursuit, opportunistic, sexual abuse, vulnerability, among them. Not an easy task. But a noble goal.

All of this is now only known to me this moment. Unbelievable.

I heard the story of the Unknown Scout from a WD Boyce descendant who heard it from Boyce. It pretty much confirmed the romanticized version.: Lost in London, fog, Unknown Scout giving directions, tip refused.

Have you tried the Library of Congress? Was it copyrighted?

Your summary of "cultural norms differences" is what I thought it might be. Thank you. It comports with my sense of how those matters were treated then. And I wonder to what degree these matters today are still treated that way-or subject to those same societal pressures.. Even in these more "enlightened" times, look at the emotional energy expended by abuse survivors to overcome their own emotional inertia to step forward to be heard, and the push back from the alleged perpetrator, and the glare of the spotlight created by media exposure of their claim. I would surmise that not all "authority groups" have advanced at the same pace in their growing awareness of and response to such claims. Parents perhaps lag way behind, whereas law enforcement, social workers/counselors, legislatures, and the judiciary are further along in their enlightenment. It is a halting, uneven, and messy process.

If it would not be too much trouble, and I suspect this has been discussed at length long before my time here, could someone itemize the basic elements of the "cultural norms differences" back when as compared to now? A paragraph or two just setting out the basics-what is allegedly different now compared to then?.

That's my unwritten thought. Thanks for giving it expression. "Grooming" just sounds too benign.

I have read the 1965 book The Codebreakers by David Kahn-perhaps one of the finest pieces of work I have ever read (notwithstanding my library of Winston Churchill and Prescott's Conquest of Mexico and Conquest of Peru). Cutting off at 1965, Kahn's book is miles behind current technology. There is an update, I believe. (Never thought of reading it until this moment, my interest being WWII.) I can only assume the technology is out there to detect hidden surveillance cameras, but that camp staffs now are placed in this position of monitoring and the time involved. Perhaps we are at the point that 18 to 20 year olds, who are not only in the midst of grappling with their own emotional transition into adulthood, and all the emotional awkwardness that involves, but are also now burdened with monitoring and supervising adults 10, 20 or 30 years their senior.

Just to chime in on the side of safety and common sense.. I have studied "swiftwater rescue" techniques (in preparation for a raft trip on the Colorado). On a scale of 1 to 10, a lake (still water) is a 2 and floodwaters are a 27. Virtually NO amount of swimming strength, skill, strength, or experience will save you if caught in the current. And if then caught I a "strainer," a downed tree, chain link fence, mail box post, anything, you will become entangled there and you are doomed. A great outcome, and most likely, they would not have attempted rescue had conditions caused them pause, but this is not something that should be encouraged. All in all, everyone was lucky.

Good observation. A process: decide to act on predatory impulses; take steps to identify likely vulnerable youth; initiate precursor grooming activities looking benign to casual observers; identify malleable youth; intensify grooming activities; identify camping or other opportunities to follow through with abusive activities; engage in abusive activities as they opportunistically arise; engage in cover-up activities (as needed). And there may many other steps and sub-steps. Not my field but just trying to stimulate discussion. The point of this exercise is to identify steps and identify the types of behavior associated therewith, so that predators can be identified prior to actual abuse.

Forum shopping is a discussion topic in elementary civil procedure in law schools. Not promoting or discouraging it, explaining what it is.

I have to agree. A predator decides to prey, and then engages in behavior to accomplish that goal targeting victim(s). I am not sure the word "grooming" fully connotes the insidious nature of the process/goal. It sounds too benign to me. Maybe a new word is needed. But clearly, a predator sets a course toward abuse, and then grooms. (Perhaps another element of YPT training-grooming techniques to be aware of-perhaps becoming alert to pre-abuse activities will prevent actual abuse.)

Why is this called the "Churchill" Project? Does anyone know?

At one time, and perhaps to this day, the BSA publication, "Standards Of Membership And Leadership" was a publication restricted to distribution to professional (senior?) staff only. So, I ask, why would that be? And, does anyone have a copy they can post? (And, perhaps the provisions in that publication bear on the issue of BSA's alleged negligence in dealing with sex abuse claims.)

I had originally typed" impracticable and impossible," but that seemed wordy, so I dropped impracticable. Impracticable would have been the better choice. As camp buildings are scattered and accessed at all hours of the day or night, and a sweep is only good for the moment it is done, I was envisioning a Morning sweep, noon sweep, an after dinner sweep, and a lights out sweep. And that's convenient. I always wear a metal detector, so I will see you coming. (And thanks for the info. Probably not all hidden cameras emit RF if not broadcasting images in real time but merely storing data on a chip for later retrieval. Can THEY be detected?)

Well, yes, in a fashion. The books keep keeping getting smaller, length and width, but thicker. The print shrinks and getting hard to read.

I think with the cameras situation, it is another item to add to the list of items to be aware of. Electronic sweeping and such are virtually impossible to do effectively at a price anyone is willing to pay. I'll never look at a towel dispenser the same ever again. And, I'll do a quick look around in restrooms and showers. I don't know anything about the technology, but a rudimentary course is going to be necessary. It is sad the damage that a few bad actors do. My guess is that packages over 13 ounces have to be mailed at the Post Office, if not metering the postage, courtesy of the Unabomber. And the TSA... Eternal vigilance...

And what, we shun the apostates? Good luck.

Does anyone have any insight into the likely method and manner of a claimant's "testimony" in the claim evaluation process? A more detailed questionnaire than the proof of claim questionnaire, a narrative description (that is, a letter), phone interview, zoom (or equivalent) interview, or open administrative hearing with testimony in person? I am assuming that claimants will not be providing "testimony" of any sort in the bankruptcy proceeding proper but only as part of the settlement fund claim evaluation process. Perhaps I am wrong. Last I checked, Perry Mason is defunct, and with 85,000 claims, I cannot see a day's hearing on each claim-that's 232 years if only one hearing officer. Even with 100 hearing officers, that 2.32 years, even if working weekends. Unmanageable and incredibly expensive. I would anticipate a much more perfunctory evaluation due to the sheer volume of claims. To the abuse survivors, this is understandably a big issue.

Lawyers really do not like their clients, standing in opposition to one another, discussing the issues of a pending case without legal counsel present. Too much chance of making an admission against interest, or agreeing to a concession without an adequate concession by the other side, or simply mucking up the case by all manner of ambiguous or vague statements or "agreements" that come back to haunt them. Even in the presence of agreements that the discussions are non-admissible, there remains the chance of disclosing strategies or the measure of one's will to contest the case (the point at which a party will simply give up, or make big concessions).

Curious. I do not understand the significance of this. Do we know if those meeting at the PTC are non-lawyer representatives of CO's, or legal representatives of the CO's? And, are National representatives also meeting with those CO representatives?

Thanks, ThenNow. I think you are very realistic. I, too, hope for the things you do.

The final result of National' bankruptcy. Just wondering what survivors would consider a "good result." (Considering the inherent infirmity of the legal system to undo the damage that has been done.) I'm not looking for a dollar amount-that will be whatever it ends up being.