Gilwell_1919

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Again, produce the slide. I've never, ever heard anything in my council like this at all. Again, if this were so then surely it would have been mentioned in some other council.

I suspect a SE shared bad information in one RT. That is all.

Analyze and interpret... right? We know LCs and national are "less than honest" based on what I've read within this forum.... and what I have seen first hand from WAG'd financials from my own LC. Would it be out of the realm of possibility that BSA was working with AIS to get the numbers so astronomically high that it puts them in the position of being able to pay a very large "speeding fine", and then come out on the other end with no more lingering claims to hold them back from being able to get back into the fast lane again? As in... "AIS... you bring a ton of claimants to the table and we'll make sure you get paid a lot of money. We'll pay your fees, and then you can also hit your clients with a 40% bill, take even more money, and then we get to proceed without any worry of old claims coming back to haunt us in the future."

Look, I agree that sounds like a tin-foil hat conspiracy... but things just aren't adding up. Again, I am glad the insurance companies aren't just rolling over. Whatever is going on... needs to come out into the open. If it is just repugnant lawyers lying to people, then they need a big dose of karma.

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Absolutely. If AIS or its claims aggregators were giving people the impression that they were acting on behalf of the court or BSA, that's a whole other issue. I have no doubt that based on the evidence that the insurance companies already put in, including from a person in one of these claims call centers, there were shady practices by some of these firms, that does NOT demonstrate that BSA was involved, which is what I had questioned.

You are correct. Which is why I am waiting on those RT PPP provided by our LC back in 2019. At the very least, it shows at least one LC SE was point folks towards AIS. 

8 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I'd say, affidavit(s) from those who experienced this firsthand. And, pronto. Sounds like they are there for the asking and a trip to the Notary.

So... who would need those Affidavits? I'd say the insurance companies... not that they are bastions of morality... but one certainly can't hope BSA will hand them over to the court. 

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I'm not an insider, but yes, no, no.

This was initially in 2019, if I understood correctly.

Yes, to the latter. The original Nov 2019 RT PPP had the chapter 11/claims guidance. In Dec 2019, the RT PPP had the "seek AIS" if you have a claim. This is when the mess started. We had scouters with information, that didn't want to file claims... they just wanted to provide BSA with information. Our LC, after clarifying with BSA, told people they had to file a claim even if they just wanted to give information. Which is how the claimant number went from "maybe BSA was on the hook for 2000-ish plus claims" to the sky-rocketed 95K number, which is slowly being whittled down.... but still astronomical in my opinion. When those people filed their claims on the the BSA portal, they were contacted by AIS who said they were acting on behalf of BSA. As things have progressed... I am piecing it all together and emphatically stating some stinks. 

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

To be clear: I am not talking about what claims and assertions AIS or its claims aggregators made. They could have been lying like rugs.

What I am saying is that you @Gilwell_1919 asserted BSA and the LCs were "directing those complaints/claims over to the Abused In Scouting Coalition."

Thus far there's still not one bit of evidence and if there was (like a slide from an SE) that said as such it would either be a) a mistake on the part of the SE b) "conjecture" (to use your word) or c) evidence of a bankruptcy claims collusion between debtor and claimant-attorneys.

Again... I don't have access to that particular google drive anymore... but I have reached out to my DC successor and asked for them. Once I get them... I will glad share with the group. 

4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Except that was literally what you claimed originally.

I cannot prove what happened in the ether. People filed claims on the Official BSA portal... and then they were contacted by AIS. Does that prove colluding? Maybe... maybe not. But... From my end... sure... I stand by my analysis that BSA was doing this. 

8 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I have a string of expletives to unleash when I see the rest of this trail of bread crumbs, er, loaves. Going to get a pillow so my wife doesn't think I cut off some fingers or discovered my old car is missing. 

I agree. My wife and I both participate in scouting because we believe in Baden Powell's vision to help turn young people into great human beings. As a corporate executive myself, I can understand the "professional side" of BSA, but... it is now conflicting with the Scout Law and Oath that I have literally followed my entire life since I was a wee cub scout. 

So... any advice on how I should proceed with my support to scouting? Do I 1). protect scouting and the youth I serve, 2). do I protect my national-level CO, 3). do I just sit on my hands and hope it all works out in the end? 🙃

9 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Your SE was wrong and if that slide exists people are going to prison and/or being disbarred.

BSA cannot colluded with its creditors or claimants to direct people to a particular lawfirm.

Be very careful here because again we know this forum is monitored by law firms and Kosnoff and the TCC.

I want you to be aware that if what you are saying is true and your Scout Executive told claimants to go to a particular lawfirm or AIS in general, this will (likely) be brought up before the bankruptcy court.

Thank you. And I hope it does. As for Tim Kosnoff... I have had direct contact with that vulture (tim@kosnoff.com). He is the #1 perpetrator behind this IMHO. What I think is going on... 

These law firms hired on a third-party CA/MA company to get clients, all under the guise of the loosely pieced together AIS coalition. I am not going to say BSA definitely colluded with AIS, but based on what I have seen and how folks in my LC were being directed to files claims (even if they just want to provide information), makes me think there was something shady going on. Maybe this is just my own conjecture... but... all I can do is use the information and documents I have to analyze and formulate my own take on this situation. Nothing really makes sense... so, again, that is why I am reaching out to this forum. Timmy Kosnoff can monitor all he likes... I hope I am correct and this all comes out and he goes to jail. He is a visceral, rapacious (and repugnant) lawyer that offers nothing to humanity. 

4 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Was the retainer agreement attached or included with any BSA presentation or materials? 

No, just the Chapter 11 announcement that sent people to the official BSA claimants page. I received the AIS PEA from one of the individuals that didn't want to file a claim, but were forced to if they wanted to disclose any information to BSA. It was after that.... they were approached by AIS that they had received the claim and would be working the claims process with them, which is when the AIS PEA was signed. After that, the claimant was kicked over to AVA Law. 

My whole point is that something shady is afoot and I don't feel bad for BSA because they opened up this Pandora's Box... again, based on the first-hand information I have seen and heard for myself. I'm certainly not a lawyer... I just want to do the right thing for all scouts... especially those that are under my guidance (*read protection) in my particular state. I volunteer at my council... and I am the state rep for my national-level CO... so I am really in between a rock and a hard place here. This is why I reached out to this forum. Not to make wild, unfounded accusations... but to seek guidance from older scouters that really seem to have my level of passion... and who want to see everyone (especially BSA) do the right thing. 

8 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

So it's clear, AIS had it's first video briefing in Aug 7, 2019. During the conference, Stewart Einsenberg announced that a group of law firms (his firm as named at the time, Kosnoff Law, and Andrew van Arsdale/AVA Law Group) had "band together...partnered" under the banner of Abused In Scouting as early as February of 2019. This means, AIS was in existence well before the filing date one year later. What that means, of course, is they certainly COULD have been in a position to take such referrals IF they did, in fact, happen. Just want the timing to be out there and clarified.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=abused+in+scouting+announcment&t=brave&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DpWjVtxoxZps

Yes, this is the unravelling that I was talking about. I, for one, and glad the insurers are digging in and that the judge approved to have AIS disclose its Jenga-like structure. I know, for a fact, that someone in my council sent a mound of documentation to the lead attorneys for the insurers because it is apparent that neither BSA or the AIS conglomerate of slip-and-fall vultures are willing to tell the truth. 

43 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Would you please unpack this a little? I'm not sure I'm following the bouncing ball. Thank you muchly.

Sorry, I tend to think faster than I can type. After our Nov 2019 RT, I was working lock-step with my DE to answer questions and point people in the right direction. Ultimately, there were two cases wherein the individuals "remembered something" and simply wanted to give BSA the information to ensure those leaders were no longer in scouting, or at the very least so BSA could look into the allegations. THEY DID NOT WANT TO FILE CLAIMS. The DE elevated it to the LC SE and then a few days later we had a lunch meeting wherein the SC point-blank to me that BSA said they would not look into anything unless someone filed a claim. Once those claims were filed, using the BSA official site, they were contacted by AIS who told them they were appointed as the "intermediary claims agents" to handle this. Again, I heard the recorded phone call that the one claimant shared with me. Afterwards, I was shown the AIS PEA prior to that person being shifted over to AVA law. None of it made sense, so I sought clarification from our LC SE. In Dec 2019, the SE came to our RT with the powerpoint that told people where to go, and it clearly identified AIS as that organization. Again... I am trying to get copies of the NOV and DEC 2019 RT powerpoints and I will share them with you as soon as I do. I've got no skin in this game other than the fact that I love scouting and want to protect the youth under my care. If that makes sense?

15 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Post please. Thanks. Even just a picture.

Most of us have seen this - or maybe not (*see attached BSA Chapter 11 announcement). I was given this in Nov 2019 as we were prepping our 2020 IYOS roundtables. At first, it seems benign and it points the person to https://www.bsarestructuring.org/. When scrolling down the page, it tells individuals to go to file claims at www.OfficialBSAClaims.com. A lot of questions came back about just "reporting information" (not necessarily filing a claim), and the official response from our LC, which got clarification from BSA national, was that anyone with information had to file a claim. Again, fairly benign. When scouters in my district, when I was the DC, filed those claims, they got call backs from the AIS coalition who emphatically stated, on recorded lines, that BSA had appointed them to handle the influx of claims. AIS then pushed claimants to individual firms (*see attached).

I am looking for the Nov 2019 RT powerpoint now. It was in the DC google drive that I gave up access to when I left that position, but I am confident I can get a copy. As for the other items, I was approached by a scouter that filed a claim and had recorded the conversation with AIS; I listened to it... and yes, AIS clearly states they were working on behalf of BSA to take claims. 

14 hours ago, David CO said:

That surprises me.  Most people at that level have little to no concern for the lower-income families.

I grew up in scouting, and I am an Eagle Scout. I am dedicated to ensuring every youth has access to the program that made me who I am today. Yes, I spend countless hours and a lot of money to make sure that happens... I don't need a thank you or an award from anyone. My reward is when I see former scouts making signification contributions to our community and nation. 

14 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

That is not at all what happened. What a load of misinformation.

BSA never directed people to Abused in Scouting. BSA, per an order of the bankruptcy court, asked in 2020 (not 2019) for all claimants to file a claim with the bankruptcy court, something ALL bankruptcies require. They were also required, per the court's order, to launch an ad campaign to that effect.

Absolutely NONE of which had to do with AIS.

Simultaneously, and COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of this, AIS launched its OWN ad campaign to get people to file claims THROUGH THEM.

Again, BSA had nothing whatsoever to do with that.

 

Unfortunately, I have first hand knowledge (emails and otherwise) that support my statement, not to mention roundtable powerpoints from our LC in Nov 2019 that detail just that. I take exception to you labeling this "misinformation".

Our LC SE was pointing folks towards AIS after getting clarification from national, and I know this because I was a DC at the time and was following those directives. I am sorry that you may not have been privy to that level of information until now, but it doesn't negate the fact that this is precisely what BSA was telling LCs to do.

However, it is abundantly clear, at least now, there is something very wrong with how this was all set up since some of the the individual lawyers and the AIS coalition are at odds with one another and are sending conflicting information to claimants. When the insurers filed their recent complaint to compel AIS to disclose its formal/informal structure, which the judge approved, I think it solidified that we are about to see an unraveling of whatever machinations they were concocting behind closed doors. Because of what I do for scouting and my national-CO, I have claimant documents that detail the agreement between a claimant and a law group, as well as that law group pushing claimants to the AIS coalition they were apart of. I stand firm that is because those law firms are double dipping (e.g., they want their AIS coalition to be paid, and then they are going to turn-around and hit their clients with another bill from their individual law firms.) What does that mean? It means once the dust settles, claimants are going to receive pennies on the dollar while these law firms eat up a lion's share.

But, that is really not the point of my response. I am here for scouting [full stop]. I want what is best for the youth in our program [full stop]. I am, however, very concerned about how BSA originally handled this, how they continue to handle this by leaving COs out on the limb, and ultimately how the voracious slip-and-fall law groups are playing a Machiavellian game with everyone. Even if the law groups/claimants reject the RSA, the judge could still approve it, which is what I hope happens so the current BSA administration can make amends for what previous administrations did to coverup what was happening, and so our current scouts can continue in a very worthwhile program. 

I absolutely hope BSA continues because BSA is not the folks down in TX or the professional scouters at the LC offices... BSA (*read scouting) is the volunteer scouters trying to provide an unequivocal program to the youth in their respective communities. My concern is that the fallout from all of this is going to make scouting too expensive for underprivileged communities that need it, and that it is going to make it difficult to find COs that are willing to give scouts places to meet and conduct their activities. 

Here is my take on this... in 2019/2020, BSA and LCs asked people to come forward if they had any knowledge of ANY abuse that may have occurred. BSA then directed those complaints/claims over to the Abused in Scouting Coalition. So, they opened Pandora's Box themselves when they kicked it over to a group of lawyers (AIS). For that, I have no pity whatsoever. 

However, here is the conundrum... should current scouts be punished for the sins of former scout leaders (pedophile volunteers or negligent professionals)? Between fee increases, loss of properties, and a myriad of other asset shifting that is going to happen, at what point does scouting become too expensive for the kids that really need it, but can't afford it? I've gotten the run-around answer from my local LC about "scholarships and camperships", but that is an entirely different mess that only really works when there is a luncheon for deep-pocketed donors - it doesn't really work when put into practice - plus it only covers a fraction of the cost. Now we have COs pulling back? 

I am a current leader at my troop, a council chair, and I am a state rep for my national-level CO to be a liaison for all scouting units within my state. Suffice it say... I am 1000% pro-scouting, but I am getting nothing substantive from BSA national, my LC, or my national-level CO. Literally crickets. 

So, my other question is... at what point do I step back to let the dust settle? That isn't fair to the current scouts in the program, but I am feeling pretty dang uncomfortable volunteering for an organization that is keeping everyone in the dark while simultaneously leaving their COs out in the fray. Obviously there is too much speculation and panic in the air, and I certainly don't want to pile on, but I am not wanting to be the only person left standing when the music stops. 

Definitely sticker shock! We just lost 6 scouts because of this and, because we've already collected dues for the second part of the year, we are scrambling to cover the additional $3200+ we need for recharter (we have a large troop... 68 youth and 28 adult volunteers). Not optimal, but a couple of us are thinking about pooling our resources to just cover the cost increase this year, and then adjust our dues for next year. We don't want any scout to leave the program so our normal ICC contributions will be going to cover the membership fee increase, which stinks because that will hurt the local council and we don't want to do that. 

Any sage advice out there?

@ham_solo Here is an instructional video I made on how to do that. https://youtu.be/bWdN0jjrnj8

@Thunderbird

Thank you... that is great advice!

@dkurtenbach

The OneNote SOP is what I created for my Troop. I created a standardized version to share online for anyone who wants to use something similar... that way they can take what I have done and create one for their troops. Since the public OneNote version is just a public template... if people want to add to it... they are more than welcome to add to it. If people add in new tabs and pages... I can snag them to incorporate into my Troop's OneNote. 

@dkurtenbach

Thank you! 

We use scoutlander for our calendar, internal communications, sharing pictures, etc. We use Groups.IO for mass communications, and we use scoutbook for everything else.

On Scoutlander, we have all of the information for new parents, our annual plan, and the calendar with all of that information. The goal of this digital troop book is more of a "how to"... as well as any other type of information we want to capture and pass along to future generations. But yes, I want to get everyone on-board. All of my scouts and their parents have complete access to this book, Scoutlander, and Scoutbook.... so they have as much info at their fingertips as the could possibly want. I only rolled this out a few months ago, so it is a "work in progress", but so far everyone seems to enjoy the transparency and flow of information. 

Maybe I am a bit idealistic... but I would like other leaders and scouts (across the world) to add information to this. Cooking recipes, camping tricks, etc. Little nuggets of info that can be passed down to future scouts.

Thank you again for taking the time to look over it and give your input. I sincerely appreciate the effort!

Happy New Year!

@qwazse

Great suggestions! Thank you. If you have some... would you be willing to add them to this book? That would be incredibly helpful. If not, I can create some. 

I work with the SPL and PLs at our monthly PLC, and we conduct training on OneNote. These young kids eat it up... they feel empowered and in control. 

1. What makes the troop run? Answer... the Patrol Leaders' Council (PLC).
2. How can I get 70+ boys on the same page? Answer... a strong Senior Patrol Leader (SPL) that has the Patrol Leaders (PLs) constantly using the Patrol Method.
3. How can I ensure consistency? Answer... develop a Standard Operation Procedure (SOP) that acts as a sort of living-and-breathing pass down book of information. 

We had a closet of binders with all sorts of outdated information and, of course, there was the sea of online resources out there that was like trying to take a drink from a fire hydrant. That got me thinking about the next scoutmaster... the one after that... so on and so forth. 

I thought to myself... what is the most simple way to collect and share information? Answer... OneNote. It is a very basic, but very powerful (free) program management tool that is pre-loaded on all Microsoft machines, it is accessible online, and it can be accessed on all smartphones/tablets (it is available for Macs too).

@fred8033 I think we are lucky in that regard. We have a senior leader that has been doing this for quite a few years and sometimes he'll step on toes, but he is aware when he does it and then corrects it very fast. Again, I think I am lucky with the amount of support I get from the committee and the other assistant scoutmasters. But, I think a lot of that has to do with confidence. I've seen a lot of parents that took leadership positions in Cub Scouts to be with their kid(s), but really didn't have outdoorsmanship skills when they bridged over. They bring energy to the troop for sure, but I think they feel kind of awkward because they don't have much camping experience. I target them and really encourage them to come camping with us. Generally, by the end of the weekend, they have a much better idea of what the "boy run" program looks like when it is applied in the outdoors. Other parents, unfortunately... as you are probably well aware... don't seem to get the concept. They hover and interject so much that their kid looks like a pinball bouncing around. This is why I encourage all of the new parents to take some of the online training BSA offers to at least get them familiar with what the program is supposed to look like in order to help influence their expectations. For the new leaders... I encourage Wood Badge!