Mrjeff

Wow.....very well said and greatly appreciated.....thank you and God bless.

Here's another question.  Who mandates anything in the present BSA.  The national organization has disavowed ownership and control of the local councils.  I don't care about charters, permission to use a brand, or anything else about what "National" can and cannot do.  In reality, and according to the mysterious "National" all they own is 4 campgrounds, which are mortgaged to the top of the pine trees, and a brand.  If a parent finds out that their little boy spent the weekend being supervised by a gay man, get really pissed off, and through a fit, they are not going to "National"......they are heading right to the unit leader,  not assistant leaders or committee members, the one and only unit leader.  Then they will probably see the head of the organization that sponsors the unit.  It's that simple, mandate what you will, there are no scout police or scout courts.  This whole pile of s%:t has blown up into one big mess.  What started as a couple of dads taking some boys on a campouts and teaching them how to build a fire has turned into one of the biggest, most controversial,  politically minded, and self serving institutions in the country, and now that house of cards is falling down.  I just hope that the dedicated unit leaders have enough pieces to pick up.

Why not? What's the difference? How does it fit with YPT?  This whole damned thing is a mass of inconsistencies and confusion. You know, other countries just dont sweat any of it.  Boy, girl, men,women, LGBTQ,  it doesnt matter. They camp together, they sleep together, they all hand out together, and at the World Jamboree they went to medical together to pick up condoms and "the morning after pill".  Then, if that wasn't enough fun, they went to the trading post in search of beer.  If Scouting is going to be an all accepting organization then why stop the progress.  Pull out the stops, in four years just give out the eagle award for participation and just dont worry about who hooks up with who.  Come on BSA get with the program, everybody else is doing it.

Perhaps its because when we were young we were left to our own devices.  Members of a Boy Scout troop went to school together, played in the neighborhood together,  road bikes together, and just hung out together.  Scouting taught us that we were all equal and had the same oppertunity as everyone else.  We joined scouts to have fun and we did.  We enjoyed each others company and we worked together rain or shine.  We had respect for all adults and followed the rules.  We didn't get involved in major social issues and had no idea what racism was because we wernt mature enough to understand an invisible concept that we didn't care about anyway. Like you said, we were too busy having fun to worry about grand social experiments and learning wonderful lessons.  The lessons came disguised as fun.

Ok, let's look at it from another angle.   In the US girls dont tent with boys,  because.........boys can't be more then two years apart in age to tent together, because........men dont tent with women because...............a gay boy or girl tents with who?  We are mandated to have both male and female leadership if boys and girls are participating so if we have LGBTQ members present, by reason there must be LGBTQ adult leadership, so should it be male, female, or transgender?  Do the parents of the Scouts approve of their youth renting with a LGBTQ Scout, or going on a camping trip with LGBTQ adult leadership.  These are questions that must be answered by the sponsor.  It is totaly up to the sponsor who can participate and rather than fight a battle or risk a law suit many sponsors simply decided that participating in the Scouting program is no longer acceptable.  Jeezzzz the National Executive Board managed to alienate the whole body of LDS Churches.  But, some of the past sponsors have embraced other youth programs and are being quite successful.  I didn't cause the mass exodus from the Scouts, but I don't keep my eyes closed and pretend that the reasons the Boy Scouts of America is failing, don't exist.  

I'm a little older. I was elected in 1974 and to be elected you had to be 14.  Another thing is that women or girls could not be members. I am looking forward to seeing how young ladies contribute to the Order. I didn't know much about administration back then but there were no members of Lekau Lodge #77 who were under the age of 14. I would like to return to that requirement .

The Boy Scouts has never been a christian centered organization.  It has always mandated an acknowledgment and duty to God. There has never been a mandated diety.  As far as the LGBTQ and transgenders,  many people do not agree or support this lifestyle and they have been labeled homophobic,  which is not a crime.  For a long time Boy Scouts did not allow LGBTQ participants and the members were ok with that. Loss of funding as well as membership caused the National Executive Board to open the doors to anyone who wanted to pay the price of membership, weather that be the LGBTQ community or girls joining the Boy Scouts. They even went a little further in starting a ridiculous program for 5 year old babies who quit after 3 months. Because the LGBTQ community was accepted, a whole lot of experienced Scouters and Scouts just quit.  Long time sponsors and donors closed their doors and cut of funding because the Boy Scouts was no longer the type of organization they wanted to be affiliated with.  Even people who have never been associated with the Boy Scouts think that allowing girls to join the Boy Scouts is a bad idea.  The numbers of LGBTQ Scouts and girls Scouts has not been able to keep up with the numbers of people who have thrown up their hands and quit.  Then out of the clear blue that same national executive board doubled the fees, which I would guess didn't help retention at all.  I really didn't want to get into this but you kept picking at an ugly scab until it bleed and I hope this clarifies the opinion that the Scout Oath and Law has been watered down and in some cases, been removed.

If you fail to see how the Scout Oath and Law have been seriously compromised I would suggest that you research the history, meaning, and application of both. Other then that, I'm not going to argue my position.  And again, compair recent decisions with the timeline leading to the current state of Scouting.

Going from Ordeal to Brotherhood was not a gimme either.  It required a written letter and memorizing the answers to a bunch of questions located in a little blue book. I also agree that candidates should be dismissed if they refuse to follow the program.  Does anyone else remember carving an arrow?

I'm a little older. I was elected in 1974 and to be elected you had to be 14.  Another thing is that women or girls could not be members. I am looking forward to seeing how young ladies contribute to the Order.

Yes that was a requirement.  Please research the history of the Order of the Arrow.  There are great resources out there for those that are interested. And I  agree that the troop program is totaly up to the unit, therefore it is the responsibility of the individual unit to make Scouting a success, or a failure.  As far as the Scoutn Oath and Law, they were set aside when some people on some executive board attempted to increase membership by turning it into an activity for everyone.  Again, I'm not going to compare credentials, or argue the issues, but I  would invite everyone to look at the evidence and compare the timeline in reference to the current state of Scouting.

Amen my friend...Scouting has been changed by people on national committees in an attempt to keep up with social norms. People who were interested in scouting didn't agree with current social norms so they quit.  If Scouting would reinstate the mandate that every member MUST follow the Scout Oath and Law, get outside and camp, hike, swim, build fires, cook.....and focus on having a good time, there is a good chance that we will recover, to a degree.  Scouting in it's current state is falling apart.  Make it what is was and can be rebuilt. 

When I was inducted a few minutes ago a candidate had to be 1st Class, 14 years old, and there was a camping requirement.  Unfortunatly the order has changed and I  know that many lodges don't operate like they should. It's difficult to tell well meaning and supportive adults that they have to take a back seat.  I gladly invite adults to attend our Lodge Executive Committee meetings and present any ideas, but then the final decision is up to the LEC.  It may be a go oil d thing that membership is declining and it may return to being an honor society. It really is a privilege to work with this caliber of young people.

The Order of the Arrow has nothing to do with Scouting Skills, advancement, or recognition.  It is the National Honor Society of Scouts.  Scouting itself SHOULD provide all of the opportunity needed for high adventure, backpacking,  and those things related to being outside.  I believe that one crucial mistake was removing the age requirement.  I would invite everyone to research the history of the OA and it's purpose.  It is an extracurricular activity and it helps keep older kids involved.  Like everything else money is a major consideration.  As membership dropped so did membership in the OA.  To increase membership, and money, the age requirement was rescinded and now the OA mixes 11 and 12 year old scouts with 14+ year old scouts and they just dont mix well.  I believe that the OA should reinstate the 14 year old age limit.  Each candidate should be First Class, and the camping requirement should be enforced. I also think that there should be a requirement where the candidate should seek this membership and be recommended by their SM.  It must be ACTUALLY run by the youth members with guidance from the Lodge Advisor.   The hardest job that a Lodge Advisor has is to keep the adult membership in check and out of the kids business.  I am not interested in comparing credentials, but I  speak from experience. The Order of the Arrow should never be transformed into something it's not and should function as the founders ment it to function.

I dont personally know anyone who is into ultra light backpacking.  There are some, but I  don't know any.  The OA is the one program that is youth run, at least in my lodge it is. This whole native american thing is just another unnecessary conflict. Our lodge has a native american member and local, real, tribal member native americans have an open invitation to attend any of our events to view our ceremonies and provide chritism.  Without exception, they are appreciative of our efforts to commemorate their culture.  I would suggest that adults let the voting members decide what they want and the adults provide the support that they need.

I am not a forester but I believe that most were long leaf with some slash pine that grow well in South Georgia. The camp was decimated but thanks to a lot of hard work Camp Osborn is usable again, although quite different than it was. Thanks for asking.  By the was, even the stumps were salvaged for some industrial applications.

One of our camps was hit by two sets of tornadoes.  Hundreds of acres of mostly pine were damaged or destroyed so a specialty salvage logging company was able to harvest most of the trees.  This certenly wasn't planned and those funds were used to completly rebuild/repair the infrastructure.   What a huge mess that was.

I still think that we the original principals of BP, Hillcourt, Beard, or any of the other founders, we should accept and employ them all. Corporate leadership, community leadership, military leadership, and McDonalds leadership are all similar, but very unique at the same time.  Boy Scout leadership mimics military leadership as long as it is allowed.  To be successful the leader is given responsibility as well as authority.  One without the other is useless.  Many adults refuse to recognize this in light of liability. As far as positive personal development, that is up to the individual. Scouting has become encumbered with rules, regulations, policies, directives and "you can't do that's " that it is very challenging to have fun and let the boys be themselves.  Either past ideas are relevant or they are not.  With all of the academic development, teaching methodology,  the implied necessity that character development is the purpose of the BSA there is no time for fun.  The lesson plans that are in place for adults are more in line with something that Ford or ATT is looking for and is far removed from what is needed for successful Scout leaders.  Again, the proof is in the pudding or perhaps the sludge.

That's a very nice history lesson. I still stand by my statement that it is not possible to teach someone to be ethical, have good character, be honest, have a relationship with a diety, be courageous or to accept and respect any point of the scout law.  It is also impossible to teach a person to be a good and competent leader.  A person can be instructed in technique, the definition of terms and academic principles.  A person must then decide if these are relevant based on many external factors and if they should apply these to themselves.  I also think that is dangerous to meddle in developmental areas if the "teacher" is not knowledgeable in these areas.  If this were not the case every graduate from our military academies would all be great leaders both in the military and in the civilian community.  There is also a very real time factor involved.  A few meetings a month and 11 or 12 camping trips does not provide the needed exposure to be effective.   That's reality, that's fact, and I stand by it.  Adults should deliver the Scouting program as it is designed and let the character development take it's own course.

I think you should just reexamine and contemplate my post so you have a better understanding of my comments. 

I find it interesting that people quote BP like they quote the Bible.  Bits and pieces are pulled out in order to fit the situation.  If we choose to follow the advice of BP and quote it as an absolute, shouldn't we quote all of it?

Yes, it looks like that we are on the same track.  Present scouting as it should be presented and the character building, leadership, and self reliance will be a byproduct.   Trying to teach, character, integrity,  honesty,  self reliance.........can't really be done.  But, provide an attractive path to those ends and that path will be followed.

Barry, Perhaps you should research the history of the Scouting movement to include it's origins in the United Kingdom.  I think you will find that it was started by a few adults in support of young men.  You may also consider reading "Two Lives of a Hero" and you may discover some info about the origins of Scouting.

Sorry, but building character and leadership is not, and has never been the sole purpose of Scouting.  It is just another bu#% s%&t idea that somebody came up with and a lot of people bought it. Scouting is and was and always has been a way for boys, yes boys, to get together and have fun.  There is a system of goal setting, accomplishment, and recognition, but it's all about having fun.  Lessons will be learned,  character will be developed, but that is not the focus. If Scouting is presented as it is ment to be presented without the consistent intrusion of adults who assume they know all there is about youth development, the youth will develop.  Somebody, somewhere sold the Boy Scouts a bill of goods that turned out to be stinking fish. Scouting is fun adventure that in itself teaches leadership and develops character.  Having a program for teaching leadership and developing character is just basakward.  Oh, but the Scouting program also includes the Scout Oath and Law and both of them have been flushed down the toilet.   This is reality and trying to do it backwards just does not work and the proof is in the pudding.

I have been involved in Scouting most of my life and would love  to attend a leadership. Unfortunatly I have had some physical challenges pop up and I  just dont know if I can do this without being a burden to the rest of the group.   Basically, I just can't walk very far.  If I were to attend, could provisions be made to help with getting from place to place?  I first attended WB in 1982, in Columbus,  GA.  We had two older ladies (70+) in our patrol and there was a gentleman in a wheel chair in another patrol.  Anyone who has been around a while knows that WB back then was much closer to the leadership challenge, then today's WB. If it were possible,  I would love to attend.