Mrjeff

Absolutly no tests associated with merit badges.  If properly completed and all of the requirements are fully reviewed and completed the educational aspect will be completed.  I have seen the whole merit badge system watered down, skimmed over and viewed as just another thing that needs to be done to get to eagle.  I dont think that any required merit badges should be offered at merit badge universities.  The "classes" are usually filled to copacity and are way to large.  Citizenship in the Nation is one of those that must be done in a small group in order to complete it properly.  Merit badges are not just a means to an end, and the kids have enough testing at school that it shouldn't be part of scouting.  Being a merit badge councilor is a great oppertunity for a subject matter expert to introduce young people to a subject in a fun and interactive subject without the added pressure of a written test.  While working with kids on the traffic safety merit badge I gave them the opportunity to take a mock drivers license test but this was voluntary and had nothing to do with earning the merit badge, although most wanted to so they could see what the test was like before getting their license.

Thank you for your long time service and for posting numerous times expressing your opinion; and having numerous replies.  That does not change the fact that these decisions are the responsibility of the local executive board, and not an organization.  In reality, as a result of current affairs, it's up to each council to sink or swim without the hope of a life line.  I would also remind you that many council properties have a provision wherein if there is ever a change in ownership the property will revert to the previous owner or their descendants. Thank you for serving as a Scoutmaster as well as all of the other positions over the past 30 years.

By camp operations I guess you're talking about long term camping.  A long term camp must pay for itself.  If the camping program can't pay for itself then long term camping is not an option.  That does make it a little harder for unit leaders to get their kids to summer camp but it really isn't hard to find someplace to go.  That doesn't mean that every camp that doesnt host a summer camp should be sold or given away.  As long as a particular property is not losing money, leave it alone and have it available for council and unit events.  The money comes from FOS, local patrons and donors,  and camp usage fees.  Again, this all comes under the purview of the local council executive board.

OK, one more time, the BSA does NOT own the individual councils.  Each council has their own executive board which includes a finance chairman and a properties chairman.   The BSA is not responsible for the infrastructure of the locally owned council camps.  That is the responsibility of the local council executive boards.  Not "National" , not the regions or the areas, and certenly not neighboring councils.  Selling, closing, transferring, or other uses is the responsibility of the local executive board. What happens as a result of court orders concerning the bankruptcy remains to be seen, but otherwise the local executive boards make these decisions.

These are the same issues that I've mentioned.  What busniss is it of the BSA weather our camp has a commercial kitchen and one flush crapper for every how many campers?  If it meets the needs of our local units they should keep their hands out of it and there is no need for a national committee to make up useless rules.  These are the same people who try and tell units that they can only camp in certain places.  I dont think that those individuals are any smarter, better educated, or more concerned about where the kids can camp then the unit leaders and parents of those kids. 

The councils should take care of council busuness including what is done with their camps and property.  There are already numerous variations in Eagle Scout requirements depending on the needs of the individual, that's a fact, wether believed or not.  Anybody above the local council seem to be more interested in their positions and have forgotten about the kids and what they want to do. We gont need regional committees to tell Scout Leaders how to be Scout Leaders, and we dont need national enforcement people telling Scout Leaders that they need to comply with what the national committee said.  That's how things worked and the whole thing has crashed down around the members.  It's real simple, when an organization that had a certain  system and completly disregarded their own system, the organization failed.

1.  At this point I think that professionals above the council level have become damage control specialists,  rule enforcement specialists, political correctness barristers, and money collectors.  Anyone, professional or volunteer, outside of the individual councils dont have much to do with the success of the individual unit. If the resources expended to support the BSA had been used by councils and districts to assist the individual unit we wouldn't be in the shape we are in.  Jeeeees, how many times does Woodbadge have to be rewritten? How many different ways can training be revamped and presented?  How many times does a national committee have to revamp the OA policy on Indian affairs?  

2.  In my opinion the Scouting Professionals at the council level should raise the funds needed to sustain their council and support and maintain their local units. There is a need to have a small group of professionals to take care of logistics and nationally owned property.  And, contrary to popular belief, there is nothing found at our high adventure bases that can't be found elsewhere and in many cases, with a lower cost.  For many years Philmont was the place to go, and that was when there were a lot more Scouts.  

I think that is curious that BSA Scouters often quote Baden-Powell in remarks concerning BSA.  There are many references made about a letter that BP wrote to the Scouts, especially during Woodbadge courses.  I often wonder why the other letters written by BP are excluded.  In the book Two Lives of a Hero there are a couple of other letters. One makes reference about not letting the Scout leaders becoming a corps of professionals because it will diminish the fact that Scout leaders are civic minded individuals who are concerned about the youth in their communities.  Hmmmm.......let's not talk about that.  If we reduce or alleviate those high paying positions councils won't have to pay fees and perhaps the membership fees can be reduced to an affordable level.  The Summit is a beautiful place but going there is very expensive and cost prohibitive.  It sure is an opulent jamboree site but it is not cost effective. Keep it, sell it, loose it to the bankruptcy,  but quit charging the kids money to support a place that they may never get to see.

Nearly everything is automated anyway.  YPT, advancement, training, and rechartering are all automated.  I sometimes think that those positions that have "region, area, or national" are no more but honorariums and are given out just to stroke individual egos.   What do these people do to positively support individual units?  How is someone from Connecticut going to tell  people in Georgia how to conduct the Scouting program?  These are the ones who like to say "you can't do that" or "that is not proper uniforming" and expect you to take their word for it.  I think that those who are "above the council level" should be reminded that the council is autonomous; as far as fun, enjoyable, or adventurous, those words aren't even in the BSA mission statement.  Let's get the whole idea of having fun back into Scouting.  I have never, ever, in no way heard a kid say, "the reason I joined scouting is to memorize, study, sit in a classroom like meeting, or to learn life's lessons.  Every last one of them join up to get outside and have fun.

There are a lot of theories and ideas being tossed around. When the BSA announced the bankruptcy they clearly stated that they national organization did not own the individual councils and that they were administered by their own bord of directors.  That statement tells me that the BSA owned 4 campgrounds, an office, and a brand.  Issues concerning merging or combining councils are the responsibility of those local boards.  Units should be responsible for their own business with the help of their local council.  I see little need for monitors or policy enforcement professionals or any of the other committees that pass regulations and directives that affect councils that they dont own.  BSA at the national level should take care of their property and supplying the units with what they need and leave everything else to the units.  Councils can supply administrative support, be the direct link to the supply division and coordinate occasional council events.  All of the beurocratic b&%* s&%@ that really doesnt have anything to do with unit activities can be deleated and Scout Leaders can focus on the program and worry less about all of the "must do...must do not...illegal patch....knife blade sizes...." and focus on the kids and just having fun.  I think this is a great oppertunity to return Scouting to the community and remove the decisions of national committees from being the final decision makers on all things scouting.  I often wonder what people on these committees know about providing the Scouting program to communities, cities, and states where they have never been.

When the bankruptcy was announced it was clearly reported that the BSA does not own the individual councils and that each one has their own board of directors.  Rather then make blanket statements about merging ao combining councils, we should those issues to the councils and their respective boards?  This is a great oppertunity to return Scouting to the local communities.  The national organization should deal with their property issues and supply.  Other then that, just let the units deal with their own business, supported by the local council......period.

Sorry for your loss, God bless.

Or council camps will become a vital part for rebuilding.  Many people can't afford $1000.00 for a high adventure trip or national event.  I can see the local camps being used by units in order to keep up the outdoor aspect of Scouting.  I can see troops using these properties to conduct their own summer programs.  I can see individual council's using volunteers exclusively for staffing camps with the help of the local rangers.  And, I can see units being more autonomous and responsible for their own administration.  I guess we'll see.

There is a lot of great discussion going on.  I have always thought that our professionals should focus more on sustaining existing units instead of trying to create additional units that are likely to struggle or even fail.  I also think that scouting has become very corporate and in order to be considered successful every level in every program is required to achieve a numerical level that really has no bearing on anything.  The focuse has shifted from helping young people with positive development to making sure that the numbers are good.  Also, just because a council is struggling does not mean that the leadership is incompetent, it just means that they are having trouble in one area or another.  Perhaps local donors dont agree with direction the BSA is going and have decided not to give or to contribute directly to the unit.  Perhaps there just aren't enough people volunteering for whatever reason. Everything is theoretical because you can't tell people what they need to do, where to give their money, or what is good for their children.  It seems to me that the areas within scouting has become more of a regulatory and enforcement entity and less of a support system.  Strong units are going to continue to be strong even if we combine councils, do away with areas and sections and greatly reduce the national level professional positions. Struggling units will continue to struggle and some will fail.  Professional scouters really have little influence on the success or lack thereof of individual units.  It will always take a few parents or adults that are willing to give their time, effort,  and often times their money to make a unit successful.  Take those dedicated adults out of the picture and even the best units will collapse.  And after all, the unit providing the scouting program to young people is the foundation of this whole thing.  I don't know, but I would be willing to guess, that if the section, region, and national level of scouting completly disappeared the units would still be there with their trips and adventures with the help of local council service centers and camp rangers.  This is just my take on things and it will be interesting to see how close I am when this whole debacle comes to an end.

I know that I have a very conservative and traditional point of view.  I am thankful for this forum that allows conversation between individuals who have a passion for Scouting and are aware of the positive influence that Scouting provides.  I guess if I could could go back in time, Scouting would be as it was when I was a Scout.  But I also know that the world is constantly changing and the old ways must evolve and keep pace with those changes.  I was recently questioned by a young lady about my opinion concerning girls becoming Eagle Scouts.  I told her that my personal opinion really doesnt matter because as long as I  am a part of Scouting it is my responsibility to support, encourage, and assist our young members in reaching the goals that they set.  I choose to remain a part of the BSA and gladly accept that responsiblity.  As an OA Lodge Advisor I am looking forward to the time that our lodge is able to welcome young ladies into our order.  I was also the Advisor of an Explorer Post where I served for 20 years.  I noticed that young ladies were dedicated members and it was common for them to rise to leadership positions.  I have also stated that when the girls get into the. OA they are likely going to take over.  I am concerned about the current state of affairs of the BSA and can't even guess where we are heading or what will happen next.  The only thing I know is that our OA Lodge will continue and the Venture Crew in which I am involved will recharter and deliver a quality and exciting program for the youth of our community.  I have no doubt that the next two years are going to difficult and challenging but as far as I'm concerned, it's worth the fight.  I imagine that most of us feel the same.  God bless and Scout On!!!

Yea, there was a survey but if you recall I said members.  By that I ment regular members who signed up to be BOY SCOUTS. Some adults, not all were asked to give an opinion.  I heard a lot of "this group loves it or that group loves it" but I never heard one youth member say that they love those ideas.  It seems like the old catch phrase "it's all for the boys" excludes the views of the group of people who it was all supposed to be for.  It would also appear that the drastic changes made at the national level didn't work out very well.  I know that a lot of people will disagree,  but the proof is in the outcome. 

Major league baseball is neither a club or private.  There is no application to be submitted and there is no membership fee.  You can not compare apples and oranges.   If I apply for membership in a group that has certain rules an I pay a fee to belong to that club, and my application is accepted does in no way guarantee the membership to another who does not want to follow the dictates of that club.  That Private Club has the absolute authority to deny membership to anyone who refuses to follow the club rules.  I think that is is the perogative of anyone to socalize and associate with those who adhere to the same interests and values that I  have and not to associate with those who do not.  Just because an individual wants to be part of that group does not overshadow that.

Another issue for rebuilding the Scouting program is the cost.  The powers that be or were,  doubled the registration fee.  That alone made Scouting cost prohibitive for some of the guys.  Now with businesses closing, the added expense of having the kids out of school for an indefinite period (extra food, higher utility Bill's, child care...) individuals being out of work, many just won't be able to afford the Scouts.  What a challenge we all face. It may revert to the days when a couple of tarps, a tent or two, and some blankets, and a friendly farmer's field make up a Scout trip.

I agree to a point.  I know of no survey, questionnaire, or petition that was distributed to the members asking for these changes.  The changes were initiated by individuals who were not members and wanted to be part of a club that did not follow their rules.  If I belong to a club that only drinks grape juice and a non-member who only drinks orange juice demands admittance,  the club rules shouldn't change just to accommodate the orange juice drinker.  It's my choice to associate with the grape juice drinkers and because it is a private club, I shouldn't be forced to accept orange juice.  It's just that simple. 

Parkman:  That is not exactly what I said and normally I dont have to explain my meaning because it is usually very clear.  What I said is the BSA was a "private club" where the members have the same wants, expectations, moral and spiritual beliefs, and sence of right and wrong. You paid a fee, filled out an application and joined the club.  As a member of that club I voluntarily agree to follow the clubs rules, it's that simple.  I have no right to join the club and expect the members to change to appease me and if I dont like the rules, I shouldn't be a member of the club.  The BSA changed the rules to satisfy the needs of the individual,which in MY OPINION, was the beginning of this whole mess.  A person can't join the country club and expect the club to change their standing rules just to please people who may join.  There are a lot of organizations that dont do that: little league teams; football teams; home owners associations; ........and the list goes on and on.   If a person doesnt like the rules, it's up to them to start their own club, find a club that they like, or just dont play.  You can substitute BSA for the word club as you wish.  And if you boil down the entire stew all that is left is the issue of money.  

You know, I love Scouting for Scouting's sake.  There is nothing, not one little thing, that I can do about the bankruptcy or any of the unpopular decisions that were made by the nationa executive board. I would like to know the last time these people at the national or even regional levels actually went on a camping trip with a bunch of kids.  Anyway, there are things that I can do with the local troop, and in some cases, our local council. It doesnt matter to me what happens to the organization but I do know that our home town, local kids will still go on camping trips, hikes, and all of the other stuff that kids want to do.  I for one am tired about worrying about where the BSA is heading and am going to focus my attention where it can do some good. I know that many will not share my opinion but that's alright,  too.  I enjoy  Scouting for Scouting's sake and not to be involved with constant conflict and beurocratic nonsense. 

I realise that the Summits Perry Park is not a highly promoted venue but when I had an oppertunity to visit I was amazed at the opulence located in a scout camp and the learning center that is still under construction is a modern and amazing structure by any standards. Amazing and beautiful projects but I hope in ten years they are not boarded up and filled with cobwebs.

The Boy Scouts of America was a private organization where a member had to file an application and pay a fee to belong.  It was a group of individuals with similar ideals, moral conscious, and like beliefs.  The members grouped together in agreement to uphold these standards and follow the dictates of the organization.  Simply put, they liked to hang out because they enjoyed the same things.  This is the same thing as an avid bowler joining a bowling team.  Someone on some committee decided that it didn't matter wether or not the rules and policies established for the members were followed because they were unpopular.  The rules were watered down, changed, or just completly done away with allowing anyone into this private club resulting in many of the private members to quit because they no longer associated with people who liked the same things.  This is similar to the avid bowler joining a hockey team and then bowling using the hockey team rules.  So here we are........bowling with hockey team rules.  This makes perfect sense me.

Well, after a career in the Marines as an MP, I assure you that I  have met some drunken sailors.  I can't figure out exactly what's going on.  According to the announcement BSA does not own the local councils.   So......I guess that means the council charges certain fees to the individual (which have doubled) so they can pay a fee to the BSA so that the individual can use a brand and four campgrounds for which a fee is paid.  Building is going strong at the Summit with a massive new learning center including classrooms, a dining facility, lodging, and a 300 seat auditorium.  There are a few 5 star apartments near a building with glass walls that can be covered with a hydraulic awning, and a presidential helicopter pad just in case a president wants to come there.  When asked how it is being paid for the standard answer seems to be "with cash"...............hmmmmmmm....................that's a lot of food for thought.