Mrjeff

As long as our local Creek approve of the way we portray their history we're just fine.  In fact they see it as a way to honor their traditions and culture.  The OA is filled with native american symbolism and is based on a native American legend.  I dont see how people are offended for someone else.  Believe me when I say that the dances are far more then prancing around in regalia. One of our guys is a native American who is proud to wear and display his regalia that represents his tribe.  He is our main ceremonialist and focuses on native American affairs. People shouldn't create issues when their are none.

This again brings me to the question about a national committee from Texas, Origon, California, etc know about delivering the scouting program in south/west Georgia.  Unapologetically I help the kids do what they want and keep the Supreme Chief of the Fire informed. If he is ok with things, then I  am ok with things.  As far as using regalia, our local native Americans have an open invitation to attend our lodge events including the ceremonies.  That may be contrary to some people but if we have the approval of real native Americans, and are open to any of their suggestions, we're doing fine.  Their stamp of approval is all I need to support our Chief and his LEC.

All native american activities have not been removed. There are three options for ceremonies.  The guys can wear their uniform with their OA sash; they can wear indian regalia representing the local tribal traditions; or black shirts, pants,  and sash.  The legend, format, and everything else remains the same.  We still use regalia and the members want to keep that tradition.  I would encourage you to verify this info by going to the OA website.

Now that's another issue. I again say that the requirements are specific.....we are talking about the basic swim test....nothing more and nothing less.  There may. ....never mind, not going there.  You do what your conscience dictates......You add what you like, change what you like, or use whatever interpretation you wish.  But the simple fact remains that if a kid passes the requirement, it's passed.  If the requirements can be passed in a backyard pool, it can be used.  How about a six foot deep lap pool thats only 15 feet long?  The 5'11 kid could jump in and swim to China but I  bet that would start another argument.  I am also greatly impressed by the experience and credentials of others, but I am equally qualified to comment on this subject. And the idea of showing up and getting a trophy is repugnant to me.  Enough said, by me.

Your expertise and experience are appreciated. However were not talking about the swimming merit badge, lifesaving merit badge, or BSA Lifeguard.  We are talking about the basic swim check.  Were not talking about middle of the lake swimmers or what someone wants to see.  All we're talking about is the basic swim check.  And without going around the world all of the opinions, variables, and extra requirements, the simple answer is yes, a backyard pool can be used for swim checks.  

Wow....Coast Guard....Guide to Safe Scouting.......accidents...........who's qualified............I think it's an innovative and modern technique to summon help.   If you have a flair and need help, use it!  That's reality, common sense,  and an excellent idea. Instruction on their proper use is also a great idea and may prevent someone from burning themself or shooting their own face off in an emergency.

I have an idea.   Someone volunteer to lead a committee to determine if a backyard pool can be used.  Then, that person has 45 days to choose their committee members.  There must be one member who will research the size of backyard pools; someone must research the shape of backyard pools; someone must research the depth of backyard pools; and someone must research the water temperature of backyard pools.  There must also be one person to research the height of those individuals who will be using backyard pools to complete requirements.  These members will be given 45 days to collect the required information.  At the end of the 45 day research material collection each member will report to the Hershey Hotel in Corpus Christy,  Texas in order to evaluate and apply the material.  After this occurs the committee will have 30 days to complete a 30 page report outlining their recommendations concerning the use of a backyard swimming pools to complete  scouting requirements. This report will then be reviewed and then a decision will be made by someone about swimming in something. By this time winter has set in, all of the backyard swimming pools are frozen and could be used for ice skating but only after someone volunteers to lead a committee to decide if backyard swimming pools could be used for ice skating!  That was easy

Wow.....can a backyard pool be used for a swim test...........yes a backyard pool can be used for a swim test.

You are so right my friend, you are so right!

This is just another example of issues, items, restrictions, and additions of specific requirements that are very explicit and are not open to interpretation.   Unfortunatly this happens all the time and has been going on for decades.

If I remember correctly the initial question was concerning a kid doing swimming requirements in a backyard pool, and the answer is simple, yes.  As far as when alternate requirements may be used, it is not based on numbers, opinions, or even rarity.  It is covered in the Advancement Guide, which does an excellent job in explaining the process.

There is a method whereby a youngster can advance even if they are unable to complete a requirement. Simply document the issue and an alternate requirement can be substituted. For example, if someone cannot swim due to a physical or mental challenge, hiking activities may be allowed.  I would suggest that you contact your local scout executive for specific details.  Best wishes. 

Really simple answer to a really simple question............yes.

You take a chill and I  dont care what your extensive collection of old books say.  I'm telling you that Lekau Lodge #77 did not have any members under the age of 14 years old, at least in the early 70s.  Believe it or not, I dont care, it makes no difference to me. But unless you were there ......well nevermind.

Sorry, I  ment organization...I've heard of Lodges, chiefs at every level, LEC, and Council of Chiefs but never organization.   So if it isn't written down and approved by a national committee, it doesn't exist.   That makes just as much sense as saying an age limit didn't exist.   I'm tired of discussing a moot issue because there is currently no age limit and I  think there should be.

If you wernt there dont make assumptions and I  would be cautious these days when stating "they can't do that" because "they" can do whatever they want.

It did exist, and I  dont think the OA was ever an agency.  No book, paper, note, picture, form, or video ever called the OA an agency so it was never an agency and did not exist. 

You can argue the age limit thing all you want, but wether it's in a book, there was an age limit because some of us were subject to it. Weather it was troop imposed, district or council imposed, nationally imposed, or a presidental decree, it doesnt matter because there was an age limit. And this isn't intended to create a discussion on who can do what or what the proverbial "they" can't do.

Thanks, this is the first time that I  heard about the idea of "local option" and I think that's a grand idea.

I believe that is the answer.  In fact it is happening now.  Troops have decided not to worry about the national level views and are doing what they want to do.  As long as the leaders, kids, and parents are good with it then it's fine.  I just wonder how many troops go on camping trips and invite dads along, registered or not.  I wonder how many units plan high adventure activities that dont exactly follow national policies.  Has anyone gone to a local gun club and had a shooting event without jumping through BSA hoops? I have always said that people on some national committee have no business trying to dictate how the Scouting program should be delivered in a community they know nothing about.  Scouting is not the same everywhere.  Scouts in the north east don't do the same things as those in the south west, and that's fine as long as the units are meeting the needs of their community.  Who better to make decisions then the dads and parents of the kids involved.  I applaud your logic in suggesting a very viable solution to a very convoluted situation.

You certenly make valid points.  This is especially evident when recruitment time comes around and piles of cub scout age kids are recruited, pay their fees and discover that they dont have any leaders.  Those kids are finished with Scouting, period.  And now with the unreasonable fee increases it's going to be a lot harder to tell the check writers, "sorry".  The local councils have placed the priority on creating new units when the focus should be on supporting existing units. They should know exactly how many kids the units in their districts can handle and recruit that number. Then thay can work on locating leaders for one or two new units and work on developing those leaders before recruiting the youth members. 

Wow.....very well said and greatly appreciated.....thank you and God bless.

Here's another question.  Who mandates anything in the present BSA.  The national organization has disavowed ownership and control of the local councils.  I don't care about charters, permission to use a brand, or anything else about what "National" can and cannot do.  In reality, and according to the mysterious "National" all they own is 4 campgrounds, which are mortgaged to the top of the pine trees, and a brand.  If a parent finds out that their little boy spent the weekend being supervised by a gay man, get really pissed off, and through a fit, they are not going to "National"......they are heading right to the unit leader,  not assistant leaders or committee members, the one and only unit leader.  Then they will probably see the head of the organization that sponsors the unit.  It's that simple, mandate what you will, there are no scout police or scout courts.  This whole pile of s%:t has blown up into one big mess.  What started as a couple of dads taking some boys on a campouts and teaching them how to build a fire has turned into one of the biggest, most controversial,  politically minded, and self serving institutions in the country, and now that house of cards is falling down.  I just hope that the dedicated unit leaders have enough pieces to pick up.

Why not? What's the difference? How does it fit with YPT?  This whole damned thing is a mass of inconsistencies and confusion. You know, other countries just dont sweat any of it.  Boy, girl, men,women, LGBTQ,  it doesnt matter. They camp together, they sleep together, they all hand out together, and at the World Jamboree they went to medical together to pick up condoms and "the morning after pill".  Then, if that wasn't enough fun, they went to the trading post in search of beer.  If Scouting is going to be an all accepting organization then why stop the progress.  Pull out the stops, in four years just give out the eagle award for participation and just dont worry about who hooks up with who.  Come on BSA get with the program, everybody else is doing it.

Perhaps its because when we were young we were left to our own devices.  Members of a Boy Scout troop went to school together, played in the neighborhood together,  road bikes together, and just hung out together.  Scouting taught us that we were all equal and had the same oppertunity as everyone else.  We joined scouts to have fun and we did.  We enjoyed each others company and we worked together rain or shine.  We had respect for all adults and followed the rules.  We didn't get involved in major social issues and had no idea what racism was because we wernt mature enough to understand an invisible concept that we didn't care about anyway. Like you said, we were too busy having fun to worry about grand social experiments and learning wonderful lessons.  The lessons came disguised as fun.