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Posts posted by Mrjeff

  1. Wow, this whole ball of wax is heartbreaking for those of us who love Scouting. Regardless of the changes, alleged impropriety,  regardless of personal opinions, there are those who will work through this crisis and do whatever needs to be done to survive. I certenly don't want anyone who has falsely accused the BSA to receive one red cent from anyone.  On the other hand there are some who were abused years ago and that have been negitively effected throughout their lives as a result of that abuse and, in my opinion, deserve compensation.  I think these claims should be scrutinized and perhaps the claimant should be deposed to ensure the validity of their acuzation.  No matter the outcome, BSA looses and it will take a lot of dedication and work if the BSA will survive to serve new generations of young Americans!

  2. Anything concerning the bankruptcy and its end result belongs right here.  Apparently there are some military people here as well as the lawyers, the sea lawyers, and those with ideas.  There's an old saying that does something like this: plan for the worst and be pleased when it doesn't get that bad.  Well, it could get that bad and the lawyers in the group know that when a case goes to court nobody knows what's going to be the outcome until the Judge's gavel falls.  And then the appeal process starts.  So as I said, prepare for the worst possible outcome and be pleased if it's not that bad.

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  3. Every time I suggest moving on and focusing on what we can do to save what we have I'm either ignored or advised that I can always start another group.  Clearly the point of my comments have been misunderstood.  I think that even if the BSA is completly destroyed no one will be able to stop the true spirit of Scouting.  We may have to return to the days where a couple of dads or moms load up their cars or vans and go camp out or take a hike.  It just depends on those Scouters who are willing to pick up whatever shreds are left, and just keep going. This whole pile of $#!+ doesn't matter one bit to the kids as long as they are having positive fun.

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  4. You can bet your sweet campfire that there is nothing we can do about the current situation and if we continue to focus on what cant be done the business is finished.  None of this at all has any effect on unit operations.  If we can't use anything "BSA" then so be it.  To use the example of Eagle Scouts would indicate that the BSA is just a means to an end where everyone who participates will earn Eagle.  Thats not how it should be.  If the fees go up the fees go up.  If they close the doors on the BSA then the door is closed and there will be a lot of independent groups popping up. If the focus is all about what could happen and not on the youth and individual units the BSA is through.  If there is no youth program there will be no youth.  If there aren't any youth there is no Scouting.  High adventure?  Most young people can't afford Philmont, but they can afford a week in a national forrest as long as someone will take them.  The bankruptcy and all of the fall out does not have to devastate the entire organization if people can adapt to the changes.  You can make up theoretical links to the kids but most of them don't know or care about this issue.  And believe it or not, that's what this is all about.  The bankruptcy and all of the negativity generated by it is just another attempt to destroy the BSA.  But, in spite of it all Troops, Packs, Crews, Ships, and Posts are still meeting, camping, racing wooden cars and sitting around campfires.  This is because the kids are enjoying themselves and that doesn't take a national office, Chief Scout Executive, or a national committee.  

  5. I still don't see the connection between law suits, trusts, bankruptcy, victims compensation and all the legal deagle verbiage and kids participating in Scouting.  This does not have to impact how Troop 123 delivers the program to it's members.  If we want Scouting to survive it will.  There may not be grand high adventure bases, national committees or even a national office.  But this debacle can't keep kids from camping, hiking, building fires and having fun unless we loose focus on the real purpose of Scouting.  A lot of people like to quote Baden Powell but few acknowledge his statement warning against Scouting being run by a corps of professionals.  I think it's imperative that we examine the methods that we as Scouters can use to keep going because there isn't much that can be done about the bankruptcy, what caused it, and how it will all turn out.  I believe that it's time that we accept the inevitable and take a positive look to the future and see what can be done with whatever is left.


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  6. I have been around the "legal system" for over 40 years and the only conclusion that I can make is that no one will know what will happen until it happens.  Until this whole convoluted mess is adjudicated we just won't know.  The only positive recourse, as I see it, is to keep our local units alive, support our districts and councils, and work hard to give the kids the best Scouting experience we can.  This takes a lot of work and dedication in lieu of uncertainty.   I am committed to helping do what is necessary to provide Scouting to every single young person who wants to be a part of this thing.  It's sad that the Boy Scouts of America will probably never be the same great organization that it once was but I for one remain optimistic and will not "throw in the towel".  In the event that the doors are locked I will be there until someone kicks me in the a$$ and makes me leave.  God bless all of the dedicated Scouters who just won't quit and live by the motto "SCOUT ON".

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  7. I don't think that anyone objects to having an educational system for safeguarding the young people who are involved in scouting.  Thank you for providing an expert opinion on the motivs of the BSA.  I am certenly no professor of law but I did work in the system for 40 years and did pick up a few things along the way. I agree that the motives of the "Most Hign snd Roya1 Scourers" need to realise that the peasant class are not stupid and can indeed think for themselves.  BSA is not transparent on any level and is really a business that is failing miserably.   Many of the experienced and dedicated scouters were forced to accept charges rhat they did not agree with based on decisions made by some committee.  So rather then conform thew simply walked away and took their kids with them.  There weren't enough other people to make up that loss which should have sent up red flags, but was apparently ignored and signaled the begining of a major decline.  Ina an attempt so slow the descent they enacted a whole bunch of rules and requirements 5hat are ineffective or unrealistic.  YPT is just one example.  Aside from not being effective it just makes people mad when "it just don't work".  I don't hate YPT but if it's going to be required then fix it and quit hiding behind malarkey,  bolderdash, and b@]] $&[+.

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  8. I for one have no idea what the truth is.  People who serve on the national level of the BSA are omniscient,  omnipresent,  and omnirediculous.  Try to have a conversation with one and immediately you realise that you will not get a straight answer that isn't cloaked in double talk.  I for one am fed up with this b%[! $÷!+.  I have invested a couple of years and a few dollars in support of this thing just to find out that it really is a disorganized circus that doesn't even know what it's various areas are doing.  I really don't care what happens to "National" because there will always be kids gathering up and hiking in the woods, camping out, swimming in ponds and going fishing.  My word, they actually have a training for those who want to go fishing!  The relationship between scouting and their sponsors is changing, the chartering organizations are supposed to pay the BSA for the privilege of sponsoring a boy scout troop that according to the BSA, they don't own anyway.  Really, what's going on?  Why is this information so secret? What exactly is the relationship between the "National Kingdom of the Boy Scouts of America"  and the kid who just wants to go camping?  It would be grand if the CEO would arrange one of the famous webinars and let people know the truth.  Has anyone in the "surf or peasant class" tried to make contact with the Texas Palace recently?  Give it a try and see what happens.  But on the same note the ruling class keeps demanding that the peasants pay greater and greater amounts of silver to remain under in the kingdom.     Hmmmm.......just like EbenezerScrooge and Tom Wilkins? 

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  9. The BSA can come up with more rules and requirements then one person can keep track of and I guess those people think that the volunteers are stupid, lack common sense,  or just have trouble thinking.  YPT is a requirement but there should be a system in place that will allow for the timely completion of that requirement.  It would not surprise me if they started charging a fee for YPT.  I wish they would just stop adding things and fix what they have.

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  10. Oh,  this whole idea of having every volunteer complete Youth Protection Training and if you don't you can't register.  Fine and dandy, good idea, way to go.........well, rather then impose more rules, restrictions, and training classes, how about fixing the YPT training so that it records the completion of the course. I'm quite sure that many will reply "Well, I didn't have any trouble" but there are many that willing to just forget about it because they have much trouble with it, have completed it more then once, and still can't print a certificate or get their ticket punched.  Congratulations to the BSA for encouraging membership, training and growth.  It's broke and needs fixing.

  11. Wow, I had a feeling that my post would stir the pot and I guess that I was right.   Cynical Scouter appeared to do disagree and then jumped right back into the area of liability, which in itself has little to do with the safety and well being of children.  There's an old saying that statistics lie and liars use statistics.  I'm just not a believer in the accuracy of statistics.   Does anyone really think that an online YPT course is going to stop child molestation,  or that taking a virtual class is going to safeguard kids at camp?  The whole thing smells to me that the BSA is throwing the volunteers to the wolves.  Mr. Scrooge touches Tiny Tim inappropriately while on a scout trip.  Oh no, who can we blame so that the BSA is free from liability. Well we know that Scoutmaster Cratchett has been trained in youth protection and can PROVE  IT because he has passed a test on the subject.  Soooo sue Mr. CRATCHETT because he has been trained in youth protection.  Or my dear child Perfect was hit by a falling tree limb while on a scout trip.  Who can we blame?  Let's blame Mr. Badguy who is the volunteer camp administrator because he inspected the camp and signed a piece of paper saying that the camping area was a safe and secure place for Perfect to go camping,  soooooo.....it must be his fault so we can sue Mr. Badguy.  Wow thats great because the BSA is shielded from responsibility.  As for the Order of the Arrow pushing virtual activities as a temporary fix,  well thats hogwash because outside activities are still considered safe if you follow a few simple rules.  To say this is only temporary is a misnomer because once something is removed it is very difficult to restart. I reiterat that it appears that the BSA is trying to put a volunteer between anything that could go wrong and the BSA, and it has more to do with responsibility,  liability and legality then the safety and welfare of the children.  I would just like the truth.  


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  12. I'm sure that there are many examples of justification to support the changes in the BSA.  I really would like to know the real reason for these changes, and I  don't mean the rhetoric about the welfare and safety of the children.  Membership in all areas is way down so the registration fees for a new youth member is now nearly $100.00.  The position specific training requirements should grant you a masters degree.   Youth protection is mandatory but the system in place to complete the training doesn't always work and may not record it's completion.  The new requirement to have a camp administrator for all council or district camping events is unrealistic and requires a nine hour virtual class that costs the participant $75.00.  The Order of the Arrow is pushing for virtual inductions and summer camp can be done on line.  Scouting was a fun, outdoor activity that was affordable for most and didn't require a masters degree in sociology to conduct.  I can't see how raising the cost and inventing all kinds of requirements is helping to preserve the Boy Scouts, BSA or any other organization that is run by volunteers.   If all of these requirements are mandatory then perhaps they rewrite Wood Badge again and include school room classes in these subjects.  "Outing" is being removed from the program and has been replaced by leadership and developmental theory.  Perhaps a better title would be "Young People's Leadership and Development Society" and simply do away with outside activities.  It looks to me as the BSA is systematically insulating the professional staff by placing a bunch of requirements on volunteers that can be verified in case of trouble.  This clearly removes any responsibility for anything away from the BSA and places it squarely on the shoulders of the volunteer.   I just want to know the truth.

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  13. I just don't know what's going to happen.  Every person who is involved, no matter where they fit in, have their own reasons for doing so.  It may greed, recourse, retribution or revenge, I don't know.  What I do know is this whole bucket of $h!t has cast a huge black shadow over the Boy Scouts of America. To say that the Boy Scouts "ain't what it used to be" is an understatement, but very little is. One thing that hasn't changed is the fact that Scouting is still a fine organization that can benefit young people for years to come.  I look forward to the day when campfire talks no longer include bankruptcy,  child abuse,  tort law, lawyers and victims.  I long for the days of talking about summer camps, canoe trips, wood badge, and how to splice a rope.  One day this whole thing will be behind us and it will be up to us to pick up whatever pieces are left, and Scout On!  

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  14. I can guarantee that with a few phone calls I could get 2-3 parents and 20 kids together and go camping right now.  I am also quite sure that there are those in every community that could do the same thing.  In my neck of the woods there are several Scouters who are active, skilled, and trustworthy and their units are plugging along. It's tragic that the BSA has suffered through this, but I  still think we can survive.  We must work very hard to restore this broken trust and to restore confidence in the unit leaders.  Parents don't give two spits who the District Executive or the National Commisdioner is.  They do care who the Scoutmaster, Cubmaster, or Den Leaders are.  This is where we need to focus within our communities.  Once 5 or 6 units are on solid ground we can worry about districts or councils and the units are run in communities by members of those communities.



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  15. This dialog provides a lot of food for thought:  People are required to take youth protection and the "good guys" who wouldn't abuse a child will follow the rules.  The "bad guys" who are abusers won't follow the rules will still be abusers; the BSA is in a very serious situation and is trying to survive so they raise the registration fees and tack on an additional fee for new members who have just joined;  the grand white elephant, Summitt Bechtel" was developed as a jamboree site and the jamborees have been canceled;  membership across Scouting is very low;  some training requirements" are unrealistic and expensive, but are required to function; BSA doesn't own or control local councils but if you don't pay the National fees or fo)ow their rules they have the ability to cancel a council's charter;  and on and on and on.  If any shadow of Scouting is going to survive we may just have to go back to the early days where good folks take kids out to have a good time.  This is just food for thought without conclusions, arguments, "fix it's ", or controversy, just food for thought.

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  16. I think that most people realise that Scouting has accomplished great things, and can still positively influence thousands of young people.  Those same people acknowledge that bad things happened, too.  Blame is hard to place, and I think, that regardless of any safeguards put in place, bad things can take place anywhere and at anytime. I don't have any answers, but if those of us who believe in Scouting, love Scouting, and want to keep Scouting alive we all need to Scout On.  I would like to point out that some people who were abused during a Scouting event and are getting help from mental health professionals have been advised that it may be appropriate to participate in these litigious activities to aid them on their path.  Just food for thought.

  17. Open water is a very applicable term. It may be that each charterd organization has to cover the individual unit or perhaps each key leader will have to obtain special liability insurance.  If something like this happens I know many leaders will walk away and more charterd organizations will also back away. This will cause the BSA to really shrink. I just hope that we dedicated scouters can figure out how to just survive.

  18. Do you really believe that the BSA will ever even be able to get insurance coverage again?  If an insurance carrier is willing to provide insurance do you think that after everything is said and done the BSA could afford insurance.  My point is that the national level BSA is being squeezed to death and we will have to work locally if the BSA or the Boy Scouts or Scouting USA or whatever it's going to be called,  is going to survive.  The Boy Scouts of America is in desperate straits and if the locals dont work to save some piece of it, it's going to die.

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  19. Realistically, in my opinion,  if scouting is going to survive, there are going to be a lot of changes if we as scouters are willing to work at it. I dread the idea that the whole thing goes down the s%$##er and is gone forever. I envision that scout units will be very autonomous with the main burden being shouldered by local volunteers.  Each unit will be governed by the dictates of whatever organization sponsors the unit. The OA will be governed by the youth members of the individual lodge with approval of the advisor and the Council Executive.  It may be more difficult finding appropriate leaders for these positions as the qualifications may be more stringent.  The only interaction between scouts will be at the district and council level and national, section or regional events will be very few and far between.  High adventure will be limited and international events will be attended by more US scouts with the help of the local council.  There will be far less oversight so thos volunteer leaders must know how to perform their respective duties and there will be little room for mediocrity.  It may even be necessary for experienced scouters to form training teams who are willing to travel and provide the necessary seminars.  None of these things will be dependent on professionals and will be largely handled by volunteers.  All of this will depend on dedicated volunteers who are willing to help the phoenix rise from the ashes.  It wont be easy but it is worth the trouble.  My immediate family has 3 generations of Eagle Scouts, 2-four bead Woodbadgers, 1-three bead Woodbadger, 2-two bead Woodbadgers, 2-Explorer Post Captains, 1-Bachler level Commissioner, and One Masters level Commissioner.  I am proud of this legacy and pray that others have the experiences and opportunities that we have enjoyed. Things will be different and there will be new challenges, but I know that if we all stand together we can survive. God bless.

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  20. Well, to be totaly Frank, if our LEC wants to do crossovers in regalia, I believe that I could figure a way to do it.  As it is we are fortunate to have a native American who is in charge of our indian affairs. If someone asks he shows up in his tribal clothing and does a great job.  I'm not even going to entertain the idea that some committee has any business telling him what he can do.  In fact, whatever he does is right and correct, and not even open to criticism. 

  21. The OA is a group of young people, and I dont intend to regurgitate the age thing.  This group absolutly and completly belong to its youthful members. Adults guide, advise, and support those young people, and help them facilitate their activities.  I "cringe" whenever an adult, especially when that adult is a spectator, criticize the efforts of lodge members.  Many, many, many claim that their units are youth run but in reality many, many, many units only do face service to the idea of a youth run program. The OA actually is a youth run program where even the advisors have only a limited influence on decision making.  I say that to emphasize that good or not so good ahat they do is done by the kids, with the kids, and for the kids.  If someone, especially an adult, that concern may be brought to the attention of the Lodge Advisor who can address the issue with the Lodge Executive Committee who are youth members elected by youth members.  The hardest job of being a Lodge Advisor is keeping other adults from influencing the Lodge Executive Committee.

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